What major crimes have the Alliance committed?

Sure, there is Arthas from the Alliance side from the beginning, but recently, I haven’t seen anything significant from their side that has shaken the World of Azeroth as much as Garrosh or Sylvanas. Why does Blizzard have to pose the Horde as the “baddies”? Why does the Horde side mainly have to “apologise” for what they have done? Has the Alliance have nothing to feel wrong about?

Is it because of their non-human looks in general? Is this going to balance out anytime soon, WDYT? Do you also feel slightly let down by the narrative so far?

Slightly is a bit of an understatement. They pretty much ran the faction concept into the ground, by just making the conflict story about nothing but that conflict was bad. Maybe switching aggressors more readily would have been undermining that concept, because the Alliance attecking after the last attack came by the Horde would feel much more justified? I don’t know, but either way, doing the same kind of faction war story twice, with a Horde civil war mixed in, and essentialy ending with a general amnesty for everyone, doesn’t speak of either great planning, or great writing talent either way.

I’d say we can be happy that the Factions are functionally dead now, but I guess that only made Blizzard stop writing two perspectives on conflicts, instead of writing better and more flexible ones…

It’s not just their looks, though. Orcs come from a violent primitive culture, and have been fed with demonic energies that changed their bodies and made them prone to brutal rage. The Forsaken were introduced as spiteful, cruel and hateful, killing, torturing and experimenting on the living on a whim. Goblins are a parody of exploitative capitalism. The Blood Elves’ original claim to fame was their crippling magic addiction that made them take up the vilest magics to combat it, and their military dictatorship. Most of the Horde races were pretty much created to be pretty bad guys. They just had better justifications before, because, in the good old Warhammer tradition, pretty much every side was full of baddies.

The humans were depicted as squabbling kingdoms that would hunt “lesser” beings like trolls pretty much for sport, the dwarves had an imperialist mindest that made them decide to dig wherever they wanted, and were willing to just murder any natives that resisted relocation, and the Night Elves were depicted as a bunch of xenophobes, giving you a warning shot in the head for daring to enter their expansive woods.
Not to mention that there were straight-out oppressive racists like Garithos around, and revenge-crusaders like Daelin inhibiting the attempts of the demon-freed new Horde from turning over a new leaf.

While the Horde races probably were worse by their written nature, there were more than enough grievances to go around to combat any guilt about slaughering the Alliance scum.

So, I don’t thinkt the Horde being bad guys is a problem. I think the problem is that for some reason the devs decided to make the players into good guys, and changed the factions to fit that. So suddenly the bad sides of the Alliance were pretty much written out, and the bad sides of the Horde were excised in civil wars, so that only the sufficiently good guys remained there as well. So now “Warcraft” just refers to fighting random trash armies from nowhere, like the pretty much unexplained Primalists or the random bigot armies the scarlets conjure when necessary, as well as the “cosmic forces” most people don’t care for, I guess…

For a long time… not much, really. The biggest conversations were probably abou Camp Taujaro, where Alliance misjudgements led to the unintended death of civilians, and the purge of Dalaran, where all the Blood Elves, guilty and innocent alike, were incarcerated and those who resisted (or met the wrong side of “police violence” by the Silver Covenant) were met with deadly force. Apart from that, I guess Jaina wanted to drown all of Orgrimmar after the Theramore bombing, and was only barely averted from executing that plan. Some people seem to find it objectionable that the Alliance raided Zandalar in BfA. And there are still some old quests that reflect the older, more mediveal character of the old Alliance around, like “culling” of Troll youths. But Alliance evil hasn’t been much of an issue for quite a few years, sadly.


I don’t know why people keep bringing up Arthas as an exemple of Alliances wrongs while this character never represented the alliance in any way. He betrayed it even before being in command and all his actions were done in obedience to the scourge.
If anything, Arthas is the greatest enemy the of the alliance, more than the Horde could ever be.

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on the top of my head. Vol’dun, and Taurajo.
Though the claim of Warcrimes is hard to make in Warcraft. sure we can apply Real world politic to it. but those rules were not there for all of history. during the great war. there were vastly different rules of war, than there are today.

Warcraft’s time period can be compared to the mid 1600s. where there were still castles and the classic idea of a plated combatant. but gun powder was on the rise. Now add magic in the mix and races that have the intellect of a late 1800s inventor (gnome/goblin) and you get a whacky mix of warfare.

Forsaken use chemical warfare. Strictly illegal by the Geneva conventions’ made AFTER the great war. during the Great war. it was fair game. Completely decimating a population was the standard back in Ancient times.

While i get that people look at wow through the lense of a modern day person. WoW is not always written through that lense.

simply put, Alliance is more prone to reduce casualties. while the Horde strives to be as effective in war as possible. which will result in mana bombs, and blight.


Actually no since chemicals warfare was already prohibited by the Hague convention from 1899, same as the use flamethrower or shotguns who caused unnecessary pain.

I don’t know if it can be attributed toward Alliance as a whole, or just Dwarves, and it wasn’t direct toward the Horde but Frostmane Tribe.
Over many many years, they took over almost entire their territory, pushed them to the corner, and over the years killed their children and stole the goods trolls crafted for themselves.
If you kill the youth, you make sure that the next generation won’t come, reducing their population even further.
This is why Zandalari attacked them in MoP. Dwarves went too far. And Zandalari attacked the combatants. But Wrynn came and put stop to it, making sure that horrendous dwarven acts would continue.

That is imo the darkest quest in the game, and it’s for the beginners. :grimacing:

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Yep. I’m a (DI) dwarf main, but I’m with you there. It’s a pretty horrendous example of wiping out a native people.

Pretty sure the tauren Stonespire Tribe were killed and genocided by the Dwarves for archeological purposes.

so another Crime by the alliance. is their attack on Sylvanas in Stormheim. and their handling of Horde sailors in Azuna. its not as outrageous as burning the caravans of civilians who associate with their enemy and the displacement of an entire Troll population, or the destruction of a hunter village, leading its civilians into the hands of hostiles… but its definitely on the list of No No’s committed by the alliance.


Are you just sure (by your opinions) or di you have lore sources?

And sylvanas let tbe Allianz down in the brocken shore to let them die, which lead to the desth of the Alliance king.

Subsequently at the moment the alliance was in a state of war with the Horde by that betrayal-so stormheim ain’t warcrime.
Also at the moment acted during that time on behalf of the jailer since she also worked with Helya, to submit more valky to transform them to mawsworn.

Do you mean the shatterspear trolls in Northern darkshore?
If yes-no warcrime since they were participants in the war during cata, the getting written orders by garrosh to attack the night elfs, which they do which made them combatants in an armed conflict with the N11/Alliance who also received military aid by horde which make them legitimate military targets.

This was pre Cataclysm. As a Horde you do quests where you assist the last remaining clan member on killing the Dwarves that took over his ancestral land. If you go to there as Alliance, they’re friendly, so…


Khazgorm and those under his command used explosives to blast holes in the ground despite the protests of the tauren who were living there; eventually Khazgorm ordered his soldiers to attack the tauren and drive them away so the dwarves could have the land to themselves. During the rout, many of the tauren were killed by the dwarves. Gann Stonespire is one of the tauren who escaped with his life

Pretty sure that counts as genocide.

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Yes. And I think that happened before tauren tribes were united, because I don’t think Thrall or Cairne would have let that happen.

If use of blight was fair game, then Alliance did nothing wrong.

We need to make up our minds. Are we using modern way of looking at war, or medieval one? If we are using the modern one, Alliance did a genocide against one Horde race and some bad things. If we are using the medieval one, Alliance (Lordaeron) were some imbeciles that kept their genocidal enemies alive.

Let’s not fall into the usual faction bickering on this one. The idea of this thread is about the percieved lack of Alliance aggression hurting the narrative. It’s not about blame, it is about prodding a sore spot that might have made everything go bad for the whole faction concept.

Does anyone really disagree with the idea that the faction war concept in WoW’s main plot would have worked better, if the Alliance had more open villainy?


Ok :ok_hand:
Just asked to be sure, somtimes you can be wrong especially your a certain bloodelf :clown_face:
And pre cata quest are hard to remember, often forgotten (or even retconed).

“Coud” count as genocid or attempted genocide, at leat it ist disposal/ removals of ethnicitys.

What the Forsaken did in hillsbrand- THAT was genocide, targets civil, civilian infrastructure, killing unary peasants, farmers, citizens and officials

You can see them in classic/SoD :slight_smile:

It would have worked better if Alliance wasn’t the passive faction. I don’t think Alliance needed villainy. Horde already hated them.

To make the conflict happen? Maybe. But having more normal human evil on both sides would have made it so much more interesting. As it was before, when characters like Perenolde, Genn, Garithos or Daelin could just be the bad guys of their stories, when elves still were allowed to “shoot first, ask questions later”-policy around their homelands, and when dwarves just murdered any “primitive” who inconvenienced them or their digsites.

I’d call that villainy, and that’s what I was talking about. If you don’t think that fits the term… well, choose another, I don’t care about the term. But if you think that some of that would have been needed to make the conflict feel the least bit convincing, that’d be some genuine disagreement.


I agree with you. I would use term villainy only on what dwarves did. But I agree that having both factions act “normal” would be much better.

Genocide of blood elfs’s army in WC3. They literally locked all the belfs soliders in cages and prepared to execute every-single one of them (Including the Prince of belf, no less!). Also define “crime”? Alliance mages helped high elfs to genocide entire united trolls army before events of Dark Portal. Also, also, the problem with the ever-proving “good guys shield” is it inherent hypocrisy and refusal to take responsibly for your own actions.

Like entire lore of Alliance when something good happen be like - “Ours victory”.
Like entire lore of Alliance when something bad happen be like - “Theirs fault”.

Examples of this :

  • Above mention attempt to genocide elfs - is HIS (the general) fault, not of the alliance.
  • Rise of Defias Brotherhood - is HERS fault, not the incompetence of the alliance.
  • Genocide of Stratholme civilians is - HIS fault alone, not of the alliance.
  • Rise of Undead in Lorderon (which caused fall of Silvermoon) is - Barov’s fault, not of alliance.
  • Horrors of Scholomance, produced by Lorderon nobility most certainly NOT of alliance fault, right?

I can keep going, but already made my point.


I’d never considered that before, but it actually seems like a very good point.

…is it, though?

The Warchief speaks for the Horde, and all their actions are in its name, some noble doesn’t speak for the Alliance, and their actions are their own, if the Alliance doesn’t back them up on it. Where is the hypocrisy in saying that?

And again, I think this is arguing in the wrong directions. If we want more Alliance villainy to have the story feel less one-sided, we aren’t doing ourselves any favours by saying “well, if you interpret it in the right way, you could see the stuff the Alliance did as villainous enough…”