Except Arthas never represented the alliance as a whole. He disobeyed the silver hand, the king and turn himself against citizens and soldiers of the alliance itself.
Rise of Undead in Lorderon (which caused fall of Silvermoon) is - Barov’sfault, not of alliance.
You can’t be serious lol
Rise of Defias Brotherhood - is HERSfault, not the incompetence of the alliance.
Still nowhere near warcrimes.
But you’re right, Onyxia is used as a scapegoat
The only point where the alliance is fully responsible of a crime to me is the genocide of blood elves in Dalaran.
Why scapegoat?
Ahe and ger brother orchestrated the plot to crumble stormwind from within.
It was her actions, her lies and influences on the novels not to pay which lead to the rise if them, exactly what she wanted.
No, it was even with knowledge or consent if the alliance, it was jainas actions with the silver Covenant, heck even varaian was Furious after he hears about it since he had negotiations with the b11 to switch sides (classic Italian move)
And as mentioned she wasn’t part of the Alliance during that time, she was head of the kirn tor aka neutral and the sunreaver broke thw neutrality and working with the Horde, smugglingthe divine bell throughDalaran to Garrosh, thy had committed (High) treason, so you as bad it sounds jainas were legitimate.
Sure, and Sylvanas orchestrated the Horde plots. Onyxia and friends were certainly responsible for manipulating the situation, but in this case it was the Alliance that acted in an official capacity, so dumping all the responsibility on her - as in scapegoating - is a bit silly. The Alliance was perfectly culpable in carrying out her evil machinations.
The Alliance accepted Dalaran and the Silver Covenant after the purge, It might not have been their plan - though there were Alliance troopers involved, as can be seen in Horde questing - but they condoned it and profited from it. I find it fair enough to count it against the Alliance moral high ground.
I’ll agree that the Dalaran “purge” wasn’t as black and white as some players make it out to be, but well, it certainly wasn’t pretty. Which is the part I like about it. It was a harsh, primitive reaction to a political problem, which is kinda what I want to see in Warcraft.
I marked the important part:
After, they werent part, only after that because jaina lost her belive in the horde finally (at the moment)
Even earlier she belived in a smal cutscen in the neutality ad the properety when both elven grups work togther, only had that shaterd by the betrayel of the sunreaver- which was the second time since an sunrevaer agend was sabatoaged the effort in theramor.
Jaian and the silver covenet asked the allaince to join, not the other way
where, as you said, the were part of the allaince after the purge, during that time no allaince troops were present in Dalaran (because neutral)
well, in honesty, we kiled for much less, it was treason after all and that enough to get it punishd by death, which we often did in the past in quest (or later)
The player often konw one solution: death (because…we murder hobos)
In WW2 Allies allied with Soviet Union. That means that Churchill and Roosvelt are accountable for the millions of russians and poles that Stalin killed before that?
As I said before, if we are using modern morals, Alliance are accountable for the genocide of one Tauren tribe in Bael modan, and some light-medium gray things here and there. Unlike the light-absorbing black of the actions of orcs and forsaken. Tell me if there is one Alliance settlement conquered by Horde where is someone left alive. Silverwind refuge? Southshore? The tree in Stonetalon?
If we use medieval morals, all is good and Alliance are imbeciles for “forgiving” genocidal enemies.
I know we all want some balance (even in “evil things”). But that can happen when Blizzard devs are not “bored” by alliance lore. So far Alliance was used to improve Horde lore.
It is, if we are onest with each other. You said that if Alliance accepted Dalaran (ruled by Jaina), then all of Jaina’s misdeeds are theirs. So, is the blood of the poles killed by Stalin after Ribbentrop-Molotov on Churchill’s hands? Because he accepted an alliance with USSR against Hitler? (I know, examples from real life are harder to swallow than some pixels in an imaginary world)
I can understand we want Alliance to be “morally-gray”. I want that. So far we don’t have that, and it is not nice to just wish it into existance, when it is not there.
Of course you can “agree to disagree” from an uncomfortable discussion.
I didn’t say that, but even if I did, it doesn’t make your irl example any more comparible. As far as I remember my history, no one accepted the UDSSR as a new US state. Your comparison might work, if I had claimed the Alliance was culpable for Horde actions, because they joined forces against Archimond for a time. You’re not reducing my argument to the point of absurdity, that’s just not engaging my argument, or the situation in question.
If you think the Horde have no reason to be blame the Alliance, if they accept they accept a nation that just wronged them nto their protectorate, I really don’t know what to say to you.
…as one should. Arguing with randoms of varying levlels of intelligence on the internet over stupidities is a vice that one indulges in, and a waste of time. If there is shame to be had, it is in doing it, not in refraining or retreating from it. Well, we all have our vices…
I agree. But from what I understand Alliance is not “United States of Azeroth”. Before Wow, Ne killed lots of humans, and still they allied out of necessity. (Indeed Dalaran equivalen would be Switzerland going “full Allies”). BTW, WW2 allies did for russians more than Varian did for Dalaran (no loans, no sherman tanks ).
Maybe is the language barrier, or maybe it is the different view of history. WW2 was seen different from Eastern Europe than in the West. From where I stand, there is a little difference between jaina telling Varian “we are all part of Alliance” and the Yalta conferrence.
BTW I don’t remember walking in Dalaran as an Alliance “full” member. We all know that Dalaran was not meant for a second to be a real Alliance member. All they wanted was the “fist bump” or “fist pump”, I don’t rememeber the exact term they used.
I am not sure I understand all you meant here (language barrier). I hope I didn’t offended you, but if I did, I am sorry. I agree with you with most of your opinions. And maybe I am a little salty from the fact that I am a little too invested in the mess that is Warcraft lore.
I just upvoted the whole post , just because of this part of the comment . Nice answer . So tired of people taking trash about subjects when they have no clue about it . History in this case .
@ the people who seem to know “much” about WW2
Short lesson in WW2 history in chronological order .
Hitler comes to power in the 30s with the desire for a great Germany .
He starts to rebuild the Army . Britain and France do not stop him .
He takes French Territory (French Rhineland , old German territory which was CONQEURED by France in WW1) Britain and France do not stop him .
USSR proposes an Alliance with France and Britain against Hitler in 1937 , which was rejected .
Hitler Annexes Czechoslovakia . Britain and France do not stop him .
A war is imminent . It is obvious Britain and France hope that Hitler will attack the USSR instead of themselves.
Stalin and Hitler make an alliance to split Poland , which stuns everyone , because they were hoping for the two would kill each other .
When Poland was Divided , Britain and France do not Help Poland. The so called Strange (false) war starts .
WW2 starts .
USA does not join the war and continues to trade with Germany .
Hitler Conquers most of Europe , Including France in a few months .
USA does not join the war and continues to trade with the Germany . No British troops in Europe .
Hitler attacks USSR .
USA does not join the war and continues to trade with the Germany . No British troops in Europe .
Hitler is 10 kilometers away from Moscow .
Japanese attack Pearl harbor . USA joins the war , but does not send troops to Europe . No British troops in Europe .
Hitler starts to suffer defeat after defeat at USSR hands .
In Germany the "Eastern Front is know as hell and a death sentence . All capable troops are withdrawn from France , Italy , Afrika , Belgium to halt the USSR advance . The eastern front occupies near 2/3rds of ALL German Troops . It does not help .
The USSR is preparing to cross the border into Germany .
Taking Advantage of the weekend defenses on the “other fronts” USA and Britain finally sends troops to Europe .
It is a rush to who will take Berlin first . It is a tie .
USSR sends troops to China and pushes all Japanese troops out in less than a month . In one more month they will conquer the whole of Japan .
USA uses two nuclear bombs to make sure Japan signs a peace treaty with the USA and is occupied by them instead of the USSR .
WW2 ends
Begins the cold war .
Final toll .
USSR 27 Million Casualties .
ALL other allies COMBINED (without USSR ). LESS than 1 million . Thankfully they helped by sitting on their isles waiting to see what would happen and “helped” when it was clear that USSR would stomp Germany in the grown and would likely reach the Atlantic Ocean while at it .
Also Ford was helping by providing engines to the Germans .
And the US helped by refusing to share the formula for penicillin with the USSR .
USA , Britain and France , wanted Hitler to crush USSR and if they had to become Fascists doing it , that was fine . In Fact Eugenics theory was invented by the British and Fascism by the Italians .
The fact the USSR prevailed against these odds is what those that spawned Hitler and his ilk , still can not forgive . So instead they try to warp history to glorify themselves in accolades they did not earn .
Say thank you to the Soviet Soldier who gave his life , so that you now get to speak in whatever language you want and you are not a German colony , or a pair of gloves .
Please before posting about history , do an effort to study it and not “retype what you heard from someone else” .
Soviets were used as canon fodder by their supreme leader, also thank you soviets for the great ukrainian famine.
Thank you soviets for the countless amount of r@pe of german women that was witnessed. There’s a reason why every German was fleeing to the west.
not not fogett the mass murrder of the polictical, culkture, inteceltual and miliraty elite of poland and everone who was seen ans thrat by the sovjet union ( Katyn massacre) as well the mass deportation of Politician or poeple who arn`t accord with the sovwjet/bolshewik ideals to sibiria, to end up in Gulag.
And the russification of wide areas in lavita, latia and etsonia (which hold even today a large minorytie of etnic russians which coud be uses as as justification for a war)
The allied shaked hand and allied themself with an mand who alerady had tons of blood on his hand (the large purges bewen 1936-37,) and which wanst better as the austrain painter.
and juzst to bring it back to topic- if you blame the alliancef or the doing of jaina, which she did befor and then join the allaince, then the same aplies to teh allies who allied with mr. moustache 2.0 who also had recklessly killed poeple, his own people.
I’m gonna say the thing guys
Arthas until he reached Northrend did nothing wrong
Post landing on northrend arthas is a different story he did all sorts of wrong, but before they reached northrend? no Uther failed him when he left Arthas to deal with stratholme alone
I replayed that wc3 campaign a few times (not to make this point I just played the wc3 campaign several times over the years), enough that at some point every house had been destroyed in a playthrough of mine
0 of the civilians make it through, not a single house that has even an easter egg of a surviving family.
Everyone in Stratholme was already scourge, it was just a matter of the transformations completing
Uther made the wrong call and all of the northern eastern kingdoms had to pay the price
Sacrificing the few for the many, a job that had to be done, absolutely broke him and made him lust for vengeance, then he lost his mind on Northrend when he heared his soldiers were thinking of sailing back and abandoning his quest
That’s what made the moment work. Arthas was right not only from an utilitarian perspective, but arguably from his personal duties towards the kingdom and its people as well.
Uther andd Jaina on the other hand had other arguably persuasive moral arguments, centering on the ethics of compassion, absolute duties not to do harm to innocents, and possibly some virtue ethical arguments about the type of person who would be able to do that stuff on their side.
And that Uther’s rejection pushed Arthas down a darker path just plays into the tragedy.
It was a geniune moral conflict that real people could have different opinions on, without one side being evil. We sometimes had those, back in the days…
I never understand this argument. Arthas comes from Lordaeron Kingdom which 99% citizens, captiol, lands and the last heir are now in the Horde. And if you mean the WHOLE Alliance at that time. Weren’t the blood elves was also apart of it when Arthas fell?
Funnily enough, Garithos was Lordaeron noble so Blood Elves split from Alliance is once again the fault of the Kingdom of Lordaeron
Technically no, since they were isolating and participating in the second war only because the orc stood at the border of quel’thals and burned it down, they watches and did nothing aa the orc burned human border towns, one of them was from a certain Othmar Garrithos,they dint take action until it affects them and after that they also quit the alliance and go isolation again.
They even hesitated as the plague in Northern lordaeron break out atnd the scourge appawe and didn’t take it serious and juat send a small voluntary force.
The surviving force from kael’that under Garrithos has an alliance of convenience since both had an common enemy.
And Garrithos had because his past a reasonable reason to distrust the elves because they didn’t help and just watched as the orc burned down his village.
And it not clear if he was, at the start of the b11 campain in warcraft 3, already under the control if the Dreadlord.
And the kingdom of lordaeron didn’t exist at the moment anymore, he was a warlord who tries to contain the scourge and try to establish some kind of order there, he inherited the rank and title if his deceased father that gave him the necessary authority to gather the surviving people and forces and amal support from stormwind and ironforge.
It was the acion of an single warlord, nkt the kingdom of lordaeron which ceased to exist.
Bit of a late response but yes I agree, I am a roleplayer at heart, not claiming my post to be an IC post but it was a bit of a tongue in cheek referencing how my character would rant about it
And that is ultimately indeed because there are just so many ways to look at the tragedy and many opinions to have about it
I wonder if the writers at the time knew what kind of gold they were sitting on.
).