Leave it to the male human paladins to defend the actions of characters like Garithos when Blizzard said themselves he is supposd to be a standin for your typical redneck racist cliche.
Kael’thas and the blood elves left the alliance because they realised they were just tools for the humans to take back HUMAN land first. Night elves learned that lesson too and its just bad writing they didn’T leave the team too at that point.
Nobody forced Arthas to do anything! dammit fanboys have the worst arguments. He was a grown adult and a Paladin who broke all his oaths because revenge was the only thing that mattred to him. Uther and Tirion are the examples of a true Paladin.
No doubt Horde propagandists would disparage the Alliance.
The Alliance exists because of Horde aggression. Without it human villagers were rounded up and used as fuel for the fel. Just as the Horde used Draenai children to open and power their Dark Portal to invade Azeroth.
Voldun. Military actions against the Horde that declared war is important. As the Horde menace had yet to be defeated once again.
While casualties are inevitble. Vulpera aggression made it unavoidable. Cutting off supply routes of Horde is a sound strategy.
As for the pacifying of Taurajo.
There are racial tensions between the Quillboar and Horde races. Tauren civilians were spared but the Alliance has no obligation to protect them from Quillboar aggression.
Forsaken are A Horde faction.
Trolls are very aggressive and there are much infighting even among Trolls.
Dwarves have every right to defend Dwarven lands from Troll aggression. Frostmane Tribe like other Trolls teach their offspring to hate Dwarves. Revenge quests and blood fueds are a very real thing. Tomorrows generation of Troll attackers can be dealt with today. What should the Dwarves do? Wait for the next Troll attacks?
Alliance archeological efforts was met by Tauren aggression. Threats were neutralised. Should the Alliance not defend ourselves? Starting a fight and losing it does not make you the victims.
More Horde propaganda. The Horde* (Edit typo mentioned wrong faction) launched unprovoked attacks against the Gilneans. Genociding the Gilneans and causing them to come to the Alliance. The Forsaken was also killing off Gilnean humans in Silverpine Forest. Both of these things were done with the full complicity of the Horde.
Gilneans and Forsaken was waging war all across the Broken Isles. Gilneans were not just fighting for revenge but against those that drove them out of their own homes and forced their people into Undeath. So let us not pretend that Gilnean aggression is unjustified. It was just…premature. They were not commanded to and it costs the Alliance the Skyfire.
Remembering the origins of the Alliance is important. It is a problem that the Alliance seems to only ever react to the latest Horde atrocity.
There was that one Alliance officer that was mean to the Blood Elves so they ended up joining the Horde.
That is a human internal conflict. Defias Brotherhood is unfortunate. But the subsequent riots have to be pacified. The death of the wife of High King Varian Wrynn made diplomatic solutions…difficult.
The Prince of Lordaeron understood that his people were already dead. He allowed them to die human instead of undead abominations.
The Alliance are not responsible for the actions of Arthas Menethil. The Alliance suffered under Arthas or the Lich King. It costs much to lead the campaign to stop him.
The Alliance are not responsible for the actions of Arthas Menethil.
Horde propagandists would push responsibility for the Scourge on the Alliance if they could. Dreadlords are known for destroying peoples - organisations - nations and races from the inside. So Garithos being mean to the Blood Elves should be fairly scrutinized.
Some mention the Culling of Stratholme. Alliance forces actually left. Refusing to participate in that. As claims of Lordaereon civilians being infected by poison grain that cause undeath could not be verified at the time.
Arthas with the aid of unknown mercanaries proceeded to purge the living Lordaereons.
Can the Alliance as a whole be responsible for the actions of one Lordaereon noble? Abuse of power - misallocating of resources can be punished and dealt with.
Your whitewashing is nonsense.
Whitewashing?
Crimes should have objective standards and definitions.
Self defence against hostile forces - repelling invaders to your lands and territories and neutralizing threats for the peace and security of your people does not constitute a crime.
The Lordaereon dead became something else. The Scourge. Now these Scourge were embraced by the Horde as the Forsaken. So false accusations of chemical warfare can not be attributed to the Alliance. This is what the Horde does.
In the 4th War the Horde blighted Alliance and Horde armies, Cursed both into undeath using Horde necromancy.
The Horde have a history of invading neutral nations and trying to destroy them. They done that with the Gilneans who fought them alone. They done that with the defenceless civilians at Brennadam. Children crying as their parents was impaled against the house as the Horde toyed with them.
The Alliance saved who they could as the people of Brennadam fought back.
I apologise. The thread is about ALLIANCE crimes.
Yes some of the Alliance leadership such as Genn Greymane pushed to inflict as much damage as possible to the Horde during the 4th war. But this was discouraged as this would have made the Alliance no different to the Horde and it’s leadership their Warchief.
Even when at full scale war the Alliance demonstrates restraint. Despite the justified or unjustified anger of the sons and daughters of the Alliance.
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But lets address some things.
Rumours of the “Alliance champion” have yet to be verified. Who was he/she? what race or class? Nobody knows.
Camp Taurajo.
Horde leadership themselves acknowledge that it was a legitimate military target. Could have been a forward outpost should Alliance interests cause further monitoring or expansions. However the general did not order the deaths of civilians, looters were killed and Tauren civilians went free and unharmed.
Battle of Dazaralor.
Zandalari fleets launched unprovoked attacks against an Alliance fleet. Also was working with the Horde during a time of war. So sending a message and crippling the Zandalari fleet was necessary. Once Rhastakhan was dead the Alliance withdrew our forces. We did not rampage and cause needless deaths to Zandalari forces, Their civilians were unharmed only the soldiers that got in our way was neutralised.
Goblins of Kezan that ran afoul of one fleet.
Now this one is…unfortunate. A ship was sunk as the captain at the time was more focused on the high priority captive. Thrall the Warchief of the Horde.
After the 3rd War the Forsaken sent out emissaries to the Alliance kingdoms for citizenship.
The Alliance sees Undeath as the curse it is. Naturally efforts to release the afflicted from such curse. Can it be seen as a bad thing?
Yes it is a bad practice to harm emessaries. But the Forsaken have proven to be very much Scourge. Forcing the curse of undeath on both the Alliance and the Horde. Just as the Lich King once done to them.
Night Elves booting out High Elves. After Azshara incident Mages and Magecraft are still very much frowned upon in Night Elf society. The Night Elfs are the only ones that are stopping Horde deforestation in Kalimdor. Horde Druids do nothing as the Horde decimates the forests.
High Exarch Yrell is not a part of the Alliance. So the Alliance can not be in anyway responsible for their actions. The Horde are responsible for the actions of the Maghar Orcs. Especially since their membership into the Horde.
Accusations about Alliance “crimes” should be scrutinised.
Should they, though? What’s the bad thing that happens if we don’t? People on the internet get stupid ideas? I think what’s more worthwhile is communicating what we want. I can even take the Horde partisan’s view at face value, and still argue for the same thing. For example:
Purge of Dalaran was an Alliance plot against the Horde? Cool, more of that, please, but next time communicate that Alliance victory better. Grabbing Dalaran right from under the Horde’s nose and imprisoning a good number of their mages should have been a major victory, but the game communicated it as a diplomatic failure on Alliance side, that’s no fun.
or:
So Taurajo was a war crime, where Alliance commanders deliberately drove civillians into the hands of murderous hostiles? Cool, more of that, please, but next time communicate that Alliance involvement better. Focussing on the leaderships’ regrets made the story too much of a downer, when a story about war and revenge should have our blood boiling.
If I think the Alliance hasn’t done enough war crimes for the story to work, or if I think the war crimes have been badly communicated doesn’t make much of a difference to me. Yeah, one seems stupidly wrong, but I don’t really care about that at this point.
In a global military superpower you might have your “bad apples” every now and then. But they can be reigned in and or dealt with. So as to not discredit the uniform and organisation.
The Purge of Dalaran did not involve the Alliance.
It was not ordered by Alliance leadership. Dalaran was known for it’s neutrality. Under Khadgar it has returned to a neutral city.
Some will blame the Alliance for this just as much as they would blame the Alliance for the actions of High Exarch Yrell on the Alliance.
Independent forces are responsible for their own actions. Just as the Zandalari was not part of the Horde under the reign of King Rhastakhan. This would mean that the raid on Dazar’Alor did not concern the Horde. The more bloodthirsty of the Horde just use it as an excuse for ongoing Horde aggression against the Alliance.
Jaina Proudmoore was not part of the Alliance until as the leader of Kul Tirans they re-joined the Alliance.
Do you know WHY during the events before Battle for Azeroth in the book titled “Before the storm”. That Calia Menethil was murdered by Sylvannas herself. The Alliance done nothing? This is because Calia Menethil was NOT a part of the Alliance.
Could Khadgar be described be described as an Alliance mage? There are many neutral characters. Like Rhexxar the half Orc Half Ogre. He was neutral for a time. First joined the first Horde leading his clan then was neutral until re-joining the Horde during battle for Azeroth.
The events of the Broken Shore was a Gilnean vs Forsaken conflict. Other than the occasional adventure or Alliance / Horde champion the rest of the Alliance and Horde did not participate in this.
It will be good for the Alliance to be more proactive instead of reactionary. Oh look the Horde done a thing again. Now the Alliance must act.
The tidesages of Kul Tiras could seek out Immerseus. The Water Elemental whose life giving waters kept The Valley of Eternal Blossom so full of life. Then the rest of Pandaria. Maybe cleansing the plagues of the Forsaken is not enough. Perhaps restoring the lands.
The Trolls are dependent on the Loa. Not only do they worship and pray to them but the Zandalari civil war made it very clear that the secrets of the Drakkari. To drain the power of the Loa. Could be weaponised against the Trolls.
So a Darkspear expedition to “secure” those secrets could be necessary.
Taurajo was a military target. As was Theramore. Yet civilians were spared. The Alliance are no longer responsible for those who are not prisoners of war.
When the first Horde were defeated. They were kept in internment camps at the costs of the Alliance taxpayers and citizens.
The entire thread was/should be about crimes committed by the Alliance.
The Alliance does deal with our criminals. We send them to the stockades or just kill them.
…was that supposed to be a reply to me? Because I really can’t see the relation to what I said at all.
Sigh.
I will simplify it for you then. Claims have been made about Alliance crimes. So those claims are to be scrutinised.
And I’m saying that’s a useless distraction.
Faction pride is important. But something that Blizzard have eroded or walked away from. False claims of crimes are just that a false claim.
The few shady things the alliance had actually done are not that bad either or got ignored on purpose. Blizzard still acts like the Alliance can do no wrong and will always come out on top.
If its only expression that is left is a few nerds arguing about the same few story events, it kinda isn’t. It was arguably helpful, when it helped us feel immersed into the world and connected to each other. But that time is gone. And it certainly won’t come back through bickering, that will neither convince third parties, nor the devs. Discussing how to bring faction pride back might be more worthwhile, though I don’t particularly care for it.
im nor sure where the "unpovoked attack happend but one coud coinsinders that alliance and zandalari are still since cata, at least Mop at War (rise of zandalari patch and later with pandaria, especally rise of the thunder King, who suppoted the mogu, which the other big tribes)
so, the capure of tanlanji and Zul back in the day was with that backgroudn alone justified (and technily the zandalari were at war with horde too- but thtt never get mentioned adressed during Zandalar one)
Tht alone woud justicication enught any assault on the zandalari.
and the is also the horde used daza alor as base of operarion againts the alliance ald kul tiras, its the same with theramore for the alliance in kalimdor.
That woud it alos make an legitimate target since horde players agrue, it was a base of operartion, so legit target…ok, then the same appear to daza alor too.
If you deny that, then that meas theramor woud be a warcrime.
yeah, taht was unfortunet, and the alliance caprint dint the best choice, ok, teh golins didnt sail under a flag, so the caprtin coudn know what ship taht is.
also, the goblins dint take harm form it, quit the opposite sinc the were all caprives and slaves, thatt action of the alliance acualy saved them.
Nerds are the niche and foundation in which global franchises are built on.
The WORLD of Warcraft is the major appeal. A common interest is also something that brings people together.
The Zandalari have history with both Alliance and Horde. Diplomatic solutions might had been reached was it not for Horde interference.
The Zandalari fleet fired the first shot.
These Goblins of the Bilgewater Cartel now that they are part of the Horde will see it as unprovoked Alliance aggression.
Technically the Gilneans was a neutral people until the Horde invaded their lands.
No they didn’t. Your filthy history revisionism. The Zandalari and Horde freed the heir to the kingdom and did nothing wrong. You tried to kill us chasing after her trying to sink Talanjis boat. Shut up.
You didn’t even react to the whole of the sencence you quoted, and certainly not to the point I made.
A diplomatic solution could have been reached was it not for Horde intereference. Neither prophet Zhul or Princess Talanji was harmed as they were in custody. Horde arsonists fled on the same vessel that they seemed to have absconded with the Zandalari entourage with.
Disabling the ship was necessary. The Arsonists could have been arrested and once diplomatic solutions reached the Zandalari entourage would have been returned safely.
You didn’t try to dismantle the ship. You tried to kill us. The Zandalar fleet protected their leader. that is it. Also the alliance ships trespassed near Zandalar. you had it coming.