What would cause you to consider teldrassil repayed?


#305

Sylvanas hasn’t been removed yet and again, this was before any of her controversial actions, so your argument doesn’t have any foundation.

You’re argument is; it’s not a trigger point if someone attacks you but Genn sure won’t shut up about it.

Plus I am fairly sure if someone decked me I’d hold it against them so… Yeah, it really was.

Sounds like you are putting expectations on the horde side though. So how is that not a double standard?

If you ignore a problem that same problem is liable to grow until it can swallow you whole. Didn’t you read “There’s no such thing as a dragon” as a kid? It’s a metaphor for what happens when you ignore a problem or something inconvenient.

Right, except now it just looks like Gilnean’s can’t honor their word. The bulk of their forces were spared under this condition.

Then Gilnean’s deserve to lose their homes for abandoning Lordaeron during the events of War3.

That’s fair. It’s also fair to point out that dropping out of the sky and bombing the forsaken fleet is decidedly not in keeping with this at all.

So, let me get this straight. According to you; The book isn’t wrong. Sylvanas’ isn’t lying. But she’s wrong, only in this specific part of what she is saying, everything else in this entire conversation is correct/accurate(?)

That’s pretty much the definition of confirmation bias.

Absolutely not. Genn was the one barking that she ‘desecrated Lordaeron with her flith’ (paraphrasing). There’s no way you can claim that Genn is totally in favour of Forsaken ownership of Lordaeron without hard evidence of which I have never seen any. Which confirms what I am saying, Even Anduin’s right hand man doesn’t think the way Anduin does.

Pretty sure that’s one of, if not the main goal of a lot of characters…

In any case after that when introducing the Val’kyr she described them as the future of the Forsaken, so no, she’s been thinking about the longevity of the forsaken too.

That’s because it’s a good arguement you haven’t been able to refute so, yeah. I’ll keep using it until then.

I like that quote, it’s pretty applicable to the horde I feel.

Well depends on your perspective. According to the book quote you linked she is allegedly doing this for a permanent peace. Or you could say that she is not the only one set on war. Jaina for instance. We won’t know until later I suppose.


#306

She is on the path of rebellion and that was the point of argument. "Horde sticks together

My Argument is that Stormheim is not trigger point. The Gilneas Forsaken relationship is.

Not really. Its what you want to see. In this case Horde has something that requires addressing not Alliance. Alliance also has the same things to dispute with Horde that Horde do not /cannot seem to acknowledge.

Thats why you need to work on short term peace rather then long term straight away.

Different people, different cultures.

Sure, thing hail to the Dark Lady!

So it would have been right thing to do to fight and die alongside Lordaeron. Taking in account given Human Kingdom relationship back then.

She deserved it. And from this point on every time you bring this up you will get same answer.

No what Im saying the novel portrays Sylvanas’s opinion and they are deranged and not True. All of them. She has outdated opinion and she only mangoes to point out Gilneas will never forgive their loss.

Its not bias, if I can back them up from the sources of novels and books, which I have offered you twice already and you kept ignoring them. So next time be kind and read whole thing and take in consideration why someone is saying something. Its not the first time you are doing this.

This was done after the war has started and Teldressil burnt, Sylvanas has commit the monstrosities.

Totally wrong! Have you read BtS, I also have mentioned it couple of times, which you have ignored and I have to return to it 3rd time already and honestly makes the discussion kinda tiring.

Genn agrees with Anduin that Forsaken are not abominations as he thought before and there is a chance for Humans and Human to live togather. And this change happened from the very 1st meeting.It is stated and cemented and whatever you say cannot change that. He wants Sylvanas’ head, we all do !

Absolutely not! No other major characters goal is to stay alive. Great example is one of your one - Saurfang and Baine, Zelling and Lor’themar, basically all Horde leaders have bigger goals then staying alive.

To use them in her cause to stay alive. You cant be that ignorant when she calls her people “Arrows in her Quiver” or for them to have no Hope. What kind of leader who has good intentions for their people does this kind of Tyrannic and selfish goals.

No its an argument that goes way back to why it happened. And I have said twice that it was wrong for Genn to attack her, but she deserved it. There was a cause and reasoning behind it.

Thus alienating herself to the rest of the Horde races. The morality always mattered in Horde, which she does not have.

She is the only one standing for this war.

Zandalari have the biggest reason to fight Alliance at this moment. This is a great reason to fight.

Kill her off, if you want her! She’s yours.


#309

The point you made was no one would come and help her if she was attacked. At the point in time you are talking about that is not true at all.

You’re claiming that battles from 4 years ago, that were ended with a bargain/understanding are more relevant to the current conflict than ones from a few months ago that were never settled. You’re claiming the evidence is in that Stormheim isn’t brought up but Gilneans is. Since Genn has never stopped talking about it and Sylvanas has always kept things close to her chest I think that’s all pretty faulty logic.

Isn’t this tantamount to slapping someone and saying that it’s their problem because they have something that requires addressing not you. Well, no, turns out they can just burn down your home. The Horde Is addressing this in it’s own way. What do you really think Sylvanas meant by “you call for peace when it suits you little lion

Also it’s pretty funny accusing horde of no being able to acknowledge something given the main point of this disagreement.

As I see it you need to remove obstacles that would collapse peace in the long term. Build a foundation for lasting peace.

If you rush to create a peace that collapses it just makes creating another peace harder as both now have more reasons not to trust in it and have reason to believe the new peace will fail, thus a cycle is born.

Not sure. Pretty sure morally speaking the building of a wall and denying any help though was pretty bad.

That’s a moral argument from your perspective. It doesnt mean anyone can do whatever they want. If everyone got what everyone deserved they really wouldn’t be many left at all.

In your opinion. Which apparently was formed by deciding that, even from the same source, a book was telling the truth and lying alternately. Like I said that is literally the definition of confirmation bias.

I think I have yet to see him ever show this to any extent. I am sceptical to believe this due to his history. When he shows it then fine, absolutely. Before then? You expect me to think someone as stubborn as Genn really has 180’d his opinion because of one instance? Not until I see it.

Surely that’s not a hill you are prepared to die on?

Except that’s not at all why she actually recruited them. You are applying the current going theory to back in Cata. We know she recruited them to save the forsaken because of the vision she had when she tried to suicide.

Just because there was a cause, and that you think it was deserved doesn’t change the fact that if you attack someone, their allies will support retribution.

Well… not really… but okay.

Didn’t Jaina abandon the world to the Legion because people wanted to work together and only came back to fight the horde?

And let’s not forget Genn, he attacks the horde even when that’s against his orders…


(Minairia) #310

Can I point out here, something regarding Sylvanas and Xal’alath.

It appears Sylvanas will be “opening the way” to Nazjatar, with the blade in 8.2. Now, what does this mean? Well, we know the Nightborne are going to be playing a role in this…is it possible that Thalyssra, Sylvanas and Xal’alath are leading the Horde effort in the Ruins of Zin-Azshari…?

I have to say, I’m not keen on Sylvanas - but that sort of story where we see more Nightborne and Forsaken interact is quite interesting.


#311

Absolutely not. Thats you interpretation. This is answer to your “Horde stcks together”, no they dont and rightfully so.

Yes.

LOL

Take it as you want, but thats the case. Alliance wont/might not recognise their mistakes same as Horde. Thats why there are negotiations and discussions that lead to compromises and understanding. But it seems its impossible to have common ground with Sylvanas.

Why is that ?

Thats exactly what I mean. To give some ground to build it up and start talks and diplomatic delegations exchanged between two factions. Which Sylvanas seemed to have stomped out in Arathi.

Says a Hordie, whos two prominent race have done the same thing for ages. Preservation is important.

True, only few manage that, without serious consequences, that makes them stand out! Sylvanas as well managed it - standing out with her amoral and disloyal ways.

I can prove my opinion with sources and opinions from other Chracters on all of the things Sylvanas said showcasing why they are wrong and right, unlike you just throwing Bias bullcr@p at my face.

You dont need showing. Its stated in the book, you just have to read it.

Look up description of heroes and villains.

Yeah after that vision she decided to do anything to stop death reaching her, using her people as meatshield ever since. And its not theory anymore its a fact, stated by her. Its not current - its confirmation of given theory players had before.

And yet no one did. Say goodbye to Lordaeron and hello Gilneas for us. Yay.

Yeah, I would like to know when not!

Yes.

Yes.

Sylvanas is still alone standing in this war… So yeah…

Sylvanas standing on the deck of Swift Vengeance near Zin-Azshari raising Xal’atath high in the air.

Betrayer… In truth it was I who was betrayed. Still I am hunted, still I am hated. Now my dead eyes see that others cannot, that sometimes the hand of fate must be forced…

Unleash the tides of doom, upon on all those, who would appose us!


#312

repayment for me would be Tirisfal having all the Forsaken npc’s removed from the BFA version of the zone or having the remaining Forsaken forces fighting with the Worgen from Silverpines not just doing what they were doing before the Alliance carved a giant scar up the middle of the zone … but i guess this was just laziness on the part of Blizzard


#313

What have the NPCs done to you that you want repayment?


#314

You realise immediately before this event is the Horde, United, at the broken shore. Then her ascension to Warchief, in the cinematic she seems pretty well supported so either you can disprove that or you are wrong.

No.

So if, hypothetically, I punched you directly in the face, then said, truce though? you think you would need to explain to me how I have wronged you? That’s basically what you are saying the horde ought to have done.

Because he calls for peace after stormheim having done nothing to smooth anything over. Of course it was going to fail, it was a pretty miserable effort.

Bringing Calia along seems a pretty poor effort to start building diplomatic bridges.

Hah, so no refute then. So Gilneans did have something coming then.

No, you can’t. You entire point there is basically “this is the truth, then this part are lies! then that’s truth then that’s a lie” You are rejecting anything written that disagrees with your narrative. Like I said, the literal definition of confirmation bias.

So I am to take anything a character says as total truth… explain to me again why that rule doesn’t apply to Sylvanas?

Mekkatorque’s gone a long way for someone whose goal isn’t to stay alive… Plus anyone who ran away from a fight, so that’s been everyone at some point.

I was talking about when she recruited them. So, yeah then, you agree? Awesome.

Guess the Night Elves got solo’d by the forsaken then.

The entire of the first and second war seems like a decent place to start…


#315

if this was in reply to mine it just kinda breaks the zone that they are just doing what they were doing before with no reaction to the battle that occurred or the fact that the rest of their race was evacuated.


#316

Until Garrosh derailed and showed his face he also had so many sympathisers.

No If your punch is coming from a reason in a very untimely situation I will hold grudge against you but wont have ground to stand because you had good reason to do so.

She deserved it Stormheim and this is your headcannon right now.

Thats not a phrase someone whos seeking peace, would say. And we discussed this before, as I recall.

Everyone has something coming. Sylvanas for one has her solitude coming right now.

Im not rejecting I can prove each opinions of Character to be right or wrong. So now get off my back with this nonsense.

That is most unjust statement I have heard even for a Horde player to write.

I cant even comment on this…

Go read Good War please.


#317

You’re right. It makes no sense that they remained there.


#318

And like Garrosh, before controversy she had no problem calling for support. So I take it you finally take my point

Either that’s a load of rubbish or you are not a self respecting person…

No, headcannon would be thinking that just because you think someone deserves something it excuses actions taken entirely. That’s headcannon

We did, and as I recall we agreed that her being revealed was very damaging to any attempt at negotiations, so I am not real sure what you think this proves.

I doubt it. Alliance have had more characters revive from apparent death than killed. The Horde on the other hand… hah, well no revivals there outside of time traveling orcs

No you can’t. The quote this originally pertains to was when she said she and her first forsaken used to be loyal Alliance citizens (true) that they died for that banner (fighting the scourge, so also true) and their reward was to be hunted as vermin (look at the classic quest zones in that area, so also true). I then cited a pristine example of how Rogers and Genn explicitly state they are hunting her down.

ever since they you’ve just been saying she believes her words to be true but they are lies. How about you try proving something here. Until then, while I detest the word, surely this is the clearest example of “headcannon” of all time…

Yeah, well, maybe you shouldn’t make sure ridiculous statements then.

Hah, well let’s look at an example. Genn could have not run from the blight in the siege of Lordaeron, there were horde with masks on in it after all. Since he values self preservation he ran. Not really uncommon, in fact we should expect everyone has such thoughts. It’s probably not unfair to say for the Alliance, this is a war for survival. The Horde killed not only them but citizens. from Alliance PoV it’s definitely about the safety of their people as a primary reason.

Ergo the statement “No other major characters goal is to stay alive.” is absolute nonsense.

Listen to the Saurfang and Garrosh conversation in Borean Tundra.


#319

You missing the point.

I respect myself, thank you very much. You know what I mean by that. When you know you have messed up and get hit by it, there is no disrespect owning to our own actions.

Headcannon is when there is no information given from source and you put your own ideas into something, which you just did.

Dont “We” Sylvanas please.

Take it with pinch of Salt.

This is getting boring. If you dont want to hear my side, then move on.

Again, you are living in past like Sylvanas. Different times Different people and Anduin has been trying to fix this.

/facepalm. Maybe its ridiculous, because you do not understand it or cannot understand it. For some reason I know which one it is.

So you truly believe that everyone has same goal of self surviving as Sylvanas? That they will do anything to stay alive?

I dont need to, there is most recent novel that proves their moral actions of 1st and 2nd war. From Saurfang actually.


#320

No, that is entirely the point man… what the heck else do you think we have been talking about?

Allowing someone to deck you over something that happened years ago where an undersanding had been reached and only reacting with “oh well, i guess that was my bad” is not self respect.

Hmm, yeah, no, yeah, no…

picky picky picky

I am just waiting for you to elaborate using logic instead of bias.

Since the point raised was about the past… Yeah, obviously.

Maybe? There’s actually doubt in your mind about that? wowza.

Nice try but that’s not what you said is it? I even expressly asked if that’s really what you meant but you were the one who persisted.

Game > Book


#321

Yeah point is, as soon as they revealed their true nature and relationship with rest of the Horde races they were rejected. If Horde is family who takes care of each other then these members have disgraced Horde and they have gotten their deserved response. Respect is earned not given in Warchief titles.

Never have been reached. If you mean Crowley trading his daughter to fight another day you are being delusional.

Alright…

Sylvanas own thoughts goes like this:

Which is true. Not Horde but, Garrosh and Sylvanas drew them from their home and as long as they are alive and live to remember that day Gilneas will be disputed and know we will come for it one day slaughter every forsaken that has defiled the land with their filth!

Major human kingdom - Stormwind, its king Anduin Wrynn’s first intentions on his rule to end the hatred cycle between two races. Her witnessing it with her own eyes how her people and Humans have shown the will to put their differences aside. And her words exactly to that particular event was that there cannot be hope in her peoples hearts, she will not allow it.

Not easily mended. But Kaldorei, especially Malfurion talking to Lorash before his death about how Kaldorei and Sin’dorei have no cause to fight and go to war.

So many forces. Happening long ago and since then there has been so many interactions between two races, she discards everything to fuel Saurfangs rage.

Yet shown from Thralls Horde that whole race needed redemption, because what had Legion done to them. Orcs and Humans finding common ground over the years. Wrathgate, Legion, Varian and Thrall, Thrall and Jaina.

We are not so different when we fight for same cause you see and we have faced so many troubles united.

Varian, Jaina, Anduin, Tirion, Kedgar all the prominent human characters who have truly got to know orcs have at least one orc “friend”. So I dont buy that.

If you could give me 5 alive humans that might prove her right I’d love to hear.

Discussed already .

By subjugate them under Horde, so much for peace. And it appeared thats not even the actual goal if she has to she will burn us on stake.

If thats the Horde you like then you do belong to Forsaken ranks.

Thats why its not relevant… In classic the Scourge was still big thing, knowing what it did to Human Kingdoms, there was big mistrust between two races, but TIME HAS GONE BY and people are adapting, thats why I say she does not change.

Stop playing Mind games with me, not working… Go get some lessons from the Dark Lady.

Was it so? Sincerely, dont remember.

No, not really. Especially given the chronological order of it.


(Erevien) #322

Nobody reads the books and blizzard loves retcons. So no, not books.

Better this way than the Baine cow path of fruitless appeasement.

Genn, Turalyon, Danath, all of the Crowley family, Rogers, Tandred and Katherine, all of Stromgarde survivors who still see hunting trolls as a sport.

I don’t think so.

Author admitted on Twitter that he forgot about Kaldorei invading the ghostlands by mistake. Redshirt guy remembered him of it.

You want to wipe out one race, then you have to go through to the entire horde first. We do not throw people under the bus for appeasement.


(Lukas) #323

Lor’themar was going to side with the Alliance over Garrosh. Just putting it out there since it seems to be forgotten a lot.

There won’t be much Horde left to go through at this stage. Other than the Sylvanas cheer-leading squad there’s really only Geya’rah openly supporting her, which is only further confirmation that Exarch Garrosh Hellscream is the embodiment of purity and righteousness and I will praise the day he crashes out of the sky in a blaze of holy glory to decapitate Sylvanas.


(Erevien) #324

Lor’themar gave himself up. That’s not the same as surrendering one of your allies to the enemy for no other reason but appeasement.

Hard headcanon.


(Lukas) #325

Headcanon or Bestcanon?


(Artein) #326

Burning Teldrassil?
An affront to the nature, planted by the servant of Ragnaros (which in turn worked for N’zoth) out of his own hubris.
This tree that was corrupted by the Nightmare?
You want to repay us? You can start with a simple “Thank you.”