Was thinking to get a few conduits quick in a +15 but it seems people are desperately tryharding it like it’s a +30 or something?
Aren’t M15 ultra free, especially nowadays? I don’t PvE much but even on my druid I cleared several 20-21… what’s the deal? Why the sweat?
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Same reason why people said Obi-Wan Kenobi serie is ultra bad : people on youtube said it’s bad, so it became bad.
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Its not a community problem but rather a game design and philosophy that promotes toxicity…
Check this video from Taliesin (M+ is at 08:00 and onwards).
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Uhm… it’s 100% the community, the guy even confirms this.
What’s even more weird is his “solution”. Basically remove every sort of “punishment” for failing a challenge so the snowflake community doesn’t get triggered too much? I honestly wasn’t sure if he is trolling at start.
Just look at these linear FF14 dungeons (as the guy basically suggests)… you can’t even choose how much you wanna pull due to the invisible walls placed by the devs. It’s definitely not the only reason but it’s one of the reasons why dungeon content failed in the FF14 endgame. It’s just plain boring.
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Dont know if serious but ffxiv currently is the No1 MMO… Dungeons in ffxiv are awesome. Actually blizzard have taken some mechanics from ffxiv and added them to dungeons in shadowlands.
But yea why there should be “punishment”? Are we on the military? We are playing a game. players who want challenge can push their keys to 20+ and have special achievements and mounts and titles…
But M+ 1-15 should be “casual” friendly and not toxic.
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If the dungeons were awesome, they were part of the endgame content, which they are not. Also, idk if you are serious tbh, there is literally nothing awesome about a dungeon wich you run with a party which is made of some copy pasta specs (do I have to elaborate on this?) where the players have no say how to pull, what to pull and how much to pull. Invisible walls are simply not fun, period. As I already said, there is a reason why the dungeons didn’t make it in to the endgame content. Yoshi P even explained it that’s it due to some core mechanics of the game.
Which are?
Because there is always some sort of “punishment” for failing a challenge. That’s just the nature if you compete. If people don’t want to compete, they don’t have to. Why creating a competitive environment and giving everyone a participation trophy? What’s even the point?
So are the NBA players but I don’t think we need to dive into that.
Where is the argument tho? If you make everything easier, then you will just replace the +20 with some other number. +15 is already hella easy, like really, really easy. That’s why I am even wondering why people are still sweating. Is it really STILL too hard for the PvE community? Like… do they really need it even easier? Really?
That’s the point tho, it already is. It was nerfed to the ground. In fact, you don’t even need 4 people for that. 3 people are already enough. How much easier does it need to get for the PvE community?
(in fact most dungeons, up to +9, tanks can even solo lol…)
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of course they are… endgame is running roulettes and getting tomestones (justice/valor) to buy your gear… so actually in endgame you run roulettes (dungeons and trials and raids)… just because there is not a M+ equivalent doesnt mean dungeons are not good or not part of endgame…
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I mean grinding the same dungeons with same difficulty is not end game content. It’s just a grind like any rep farm or world quest bs. That’s why I said the dungeons in FF14 failed. I mean, we don’t even need to discuss that, Yoshi P confirmed it himself that the “real” end game content of FF14 are raids.
You didn’t answer the question btw. What did SL copy from FF14?
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I run plaguefall +15 30-40 times in 2 weeks for Poxstorm (was unlucky AF)… that was exactly same grind. The dungeons is the same either you run it +10 or +15 is same route, same dungeons, same bosses. And FFXIV dont have 1 dungeon, roulettes give you the most tomestones and with roulette can get any dungeon… plus it have trials (1 boss fight) which are different.
Anyway, we are not here to debate wow vs ffxiv… but M+ content as it is now creates toxicity… I got insulted many times for various reasons… once because I didnt have invisibility potion on me, other because I didnt go for the red slime in plaguefall…
I ended up stop playing tank because of this. And then stop playing at all since as a DH was hard to find groups even with very good ilvl… people preferred range dps and dps with Bloodlust…
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You confuse here something. I am not saying WoW has no grind.
I am saying the dungeons are part of the end game and have different difficulties and therefore also different rewards. You don’t run +25 pf, do you? The reason might be the difficulty? (and the lack of rewards, which is why PvE gets boring fast in the first place)
0-9 is same and 10-20 is same, yes but it’s already not the same at the same time, isn’t it? 
Also, you have different “mechanics” every week (so the pulls are already different), which again, were nerfed for the PvE community, so people can run higher keys and feel better. Weird mentality if you ask me but I guess you gotta please the customers, regardless how whiny they are.
It’s so simple but not possible in FF14.
Oh please don’t let me get started on the down scaling… it’s the WORST design in MMORPG history. Imagine a player grinding and progressing on his character long term, just to make all of it irrelevant, so he can run some daily stuff… oh my god…
I mean I’ve seen many different players in M+ dungeons and 99% of them simply don’t have their UI set up properly, which is why they make very, very stupid mistakes. (and some people might just be stupid or trolling hard idk) That’s why my friends even asked me to heal some 20+ keys in the first place, because they simply know they can rely on me playing simple, basic mechanics.
See? That’s not the fault of the M+
That’s exactly what I mentioned… the PvE community tryhards in low keys for no reason. Like… why? As I said, you can do those with 3 people easily… I mean that’s why boosting works in the first place…
See, again… the community. It’s not the dungeon requiring that and most likely not the key. That was my whole point.
Making everything easier is not the solution, it’s like giving max loot in m0, it’s not solving anything. +15s are already super easy, even +20 are.
Making a dungeon dull and 100% scripted like FF14 is just plain boring and I am sure you are aware of the fact that their community asked for something like M+ for many years. They still didn’t get it and prolly never will but that’s another story.
Snoozefest is what they are. Pull everything until you can no longer go any further and then just aoe everything. Repeat. No thought behind it.
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I dont run above 15 (I ve done some +17 though) because there is no better rewards true. I ve setup my UI with everything needed, I did not got insulted for stupid mistakes but for very simple things that didnt really impact the run as well…
As you said, many tryhards do low keys and are very serious… but this is how they got “trained” by blizzard… if you promote an “elitist jerk” mentality by game design you cant expect then the same person act different on less demanding content.
As an example, community in ffxiv is very very good. Its tons better than wow. Why is that? is it by luck? All the good people happened to play ffxiv? nope is the game that promotes or discourage some attitudes…
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This is where I disagree with. The design is absolutely fine. It’s already made super easy and casual friendly. So people can even do +15 keys easily and feel some sort of achievement even tho it’s super easy.
What you are describing is the weird community, which watches stuff like MDI and some streamer doing high keys and tries to apply this to low keys. It’s good to have competitive mind but it’s useless if the community doesn’t understand the level of difficulty and the requirements for the content they are doing.
I vehemently disagree. Maybe from super casual point of view. I am a casual myself but I still like challenges, otherwise I’d play some single players with god mode. FF14 community felt like playing with bots but more like an alpha version of it. It literally gave me headache playing the “hard” content in FF14. People made mistakes… holy… I didn’t even think you could do that… speaking for EW here mostly where it’s already enough to follow the marked guy for 90% of the time while doing other basic mechanics.
The game simply has no end game content, which is why Yoshi P even said himself people should play other games and wait for new content 
I remember when I started EW like 1,5 months (?) after release and I cleared the WHOLE end game content, all difficulties within one day with random groups without voice… I mean… lol
I really love the FF franchise and I could even live with the failed MMORPG design the FF14 provides (no player choice, copy pasta “jobs”, ultra long gcd etc) but the lack of content, combined with the low quality is imo why FF14 peak player numbers equaled WoW’s bottom at the apparently worst state.
there is no content in endgame for a majority of the players in wow to so their about equal there i guess
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With harder modes coming in August
MDI globals 2022 started yesterday 
My friends and I were just as amused as we were puzzled, because when we turned back to play M+ after having watched ECHO, the LFG was full of demands of just those classes which was seen in the MDI.
We were even declined from 10’s and 8’s as a Hpriest and mage spite we have KSM 
And the pugs we did get in to, were clearly MDI inspired in their pulls.
Things always gets interesting in the M+ puglife around MDI. People want to try and mirror and do the same. So expect some sweatting while MDI is on 
‘‘What’s wrong with the PvE community?’’
What is wrong with the PvP community? They are behaving the same as you do in PvP.
Nothing is free.
The deal is you should bring your druid to the PvE community for 15+'s because many people are looking for
and you are welcome. Deal?
Hmm, quick.
Dungeons are not rewarding in this expansion
in BFA
Every run 3 items droped + you could bonus roll if you needed item from particular dungeon
Right now it’s 2 and if you miss timer it’s 2 but one of the items is lower ilvl
imagine this nonsence
and they wonder why people leave keys when it’s not gonna be in time
why would you stay in key for a lower ilvl piece when you farming gear for example
And when we talk keys beyond 15 there is no real reward just some lame portals
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I don’t really see what that has to do with tryharding and sweatting in +15’s
Although I do agree with your point
No +15 is definetly not ultra Free. You may feel that its ultra Free if you were lucky to find 4 other people WHO are willing to carry you there and do all mechanics for you . But those 4 people are usually angry that they have to carry people with mentality like yours .
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