Funny how rogues pretend its 4p bonus is the problem to misslead everyone, while its actually rogue class in general since 2004. No need to sweat so much, blizz never through wow history nerfed their favorite class to the point its actually balanced. Just accept your incoming laughable nerf of some ability no body complained about, then pretend the nerf is HUUUGE LITERALLY UNPLAYABLE NOW QQ while statistics says rogue is still OP like it happened with SP and DH. Then wait when blizz “accidently” make you kill people in a stun while whole opponent’s team is CCed, so pro rogue players can still pick their favorite class in every AWC and what not.
My god, the mental gymnastics and effort you’re going through to argue that you being 1500 max player after playing the game for many years according to yourself does not make you a bad player. Not a good look.
I am not arguing that I am a max player. I never made that proposition. I am arguing that you cannot conclude to what degree I know about aspects of this game according to the CR rating alone.
I can be a bad player and know a lot about the mechanics, those are not mutually exclusive. I can also be a good player and know nothing about the game.
And since we are arguing here, I am sure that IF I had high CR, it would probably be argued that I only had high CR because I was a rogue and that it wasnt my knowledge, and infact I am certain that the underlying problem is that instead of arguing on the grounds of what could possibly make the best experience for all Rogues and Non-Rogues alike, one has instead decided as a prejudice that I am wrong, and so now that such a prejudice is implemented, all we need is to find places were we can apply the prejudice. CR is an easy one, and thus we can complete the prejudice with “Ah, I was right all along. Your CR is low. Of course it is, I knew it the second you started talking!”, but alas, prejudice cannot be sustained when encountering logic and reason, and so it does not matter how bad a player I am, how low my CR are, what matters if the balancing of the classes, for which I only wish for the solution to be fair and reasonable for all Rogues and Non-Rogues alike. A solution free of prejudice & hatred towards certain classes.
Every single point is wrong. You can do actualy all of these…except healijg other players.
Long gone are the times when rogue was a glass canon that actualy had to use brain to not get rolled by warriors or such…now they just facetank them.
rogue vs war used to be like 10min long duel cos u had to reset him so many times with gouge and re or he just takes away 90% of ur health with one swing 
Your perspective might aswell be wrong, but you never come to realize that because 1) you haven’t ever tried to apply it to achieve actual results or 2) you never reached any upper echelon of achievement to stress test your ideas in an environment where bad ideas can actually be punished.
I don’t want to get too deep or personal into this, but having read some of what you said sounds really fried to me aswell so from my perspective it’s hard to imagine you are some sort of exception.
Thats a prejudice. I think it is incredibly “fried” to think deeply into the core of your knowledge structure that knowledge is causally linked to your CR. Its not only a misunderstanding of what personal rating systems such as ELO are, but its also a complete misunderstanding of causality not to mention the very structure of our consciousness, and how knowledge is formed.
The logic is equal to saying:
- Only the CEO of Blizzard can judge the company Blizzard. If you are not CR, then how can you know what you are talking about?
- Only a Politician can criticize the government. If you are not a politician, then how can you know what you are talking about?
- And I could go on…
I mean, just to name like the absolute lowest level of abstract thinking, personal rating systems such as ELO require a certain time played to increase your standing. thus, if you are an average player in terms of skills, your delta increase will be low and the number of games in order to reach a high level must be high. THEREFORE, a low CR is equally as much about skill level as it is about time invested. Only when the number of games are very high, and the CR low, can be determine a causality between the two, but it is not a complete causality, because it could also be linked to the class composition or the teammate(s) (in terms of 2v2 and 3v3).
I forfeit, you have defeated me. Good luck on your crusade.
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Dude im just gonna end this discussion with this. I have been gaming for a long time, and reached high level even in a few games (not wow). I’ve encountered guys like you quite a few times along the way, and they are ALWAYS bad. Yeah technically you can’t make that conclusion from your low xp, but in practice its so statistically likely that its perfectly reasonable to assume it is true. Also take a moment to think about what it reveals about you that you’re willing to invest so much time and effort writing up this stuff to justify that technically you could be some exception to a rule that is 99.999999% true. Come on.
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Personal attacks is the lowest form of argumentation, and the most common in narcissists. Lets focus on the content instead of having this weird discussion in which you try to propose that what I want to discuss on these forums are not topics for debate, but rather content of absolute no value, because of the low resolution proposition that my CR is a reflection of my reasoning capabilities. Its impressive that you think it can in any way or form be meaningful to devalue someone based on a manmade rating system, my god, imagine if we thought like this in society. Anyone who didnt get an average of A in highschool are not allowed to vote and must be silenced from all fora!
Just to let you know, there are scientists who proved this as a logical fallacy of causality more than 250 years ago. Congratulations, you have 250 years worth of technology and scientific advancement to give you a headstart, and somehow you are less capable of understanding then men wearing wigs who doubted the centrality of the sun.
i agree, nerfe Assa to the ground, give Assa the Ret treatment.
Even if a physicist knows all about the mathematical laws of skydiving, he cannot judge it unless he has parachuted out of an aircraft himself.
Same for PvP in WoW. You need to experience it to know what you are talking about!
I didn’t pre-judge you, I judged you after reading your posts and after I checked if you were even in a position for such ideas. It turned out that you were not.
To be fair though, you said yourself that your idea left out some effects you haven’t thought of, which I credit to your character, but doesn’t that actually confirm my judgement?
And that perhaps you also disregard too many aspects of other suggestions of mine or ideas of yours? Possibly because you simply didn’t think about it, or also because you simply didn’t know about it?
So when you agree, why do you still disagree with the better idea of a nerf?
I don’t hate Rogue on itself, I actually only hate Mages and RMP. But that wasn’t the question here. I have multiple reasons to ask for a revert of the defensive nerfs to basically all classes. The games are just too fast and the class that benefits the most from lack in defense is rogue!
Which is also the reason why nearly every team in the AWC last weekend had an Assa rogue in it. Both finals, in EU and NA, was played by Rogue+Caster on both teams. On Saturday, every single game was won by a team with an Assa rogue in it!
Why is that? Because their defense isn’t only based on damage avoidance which bypasses effects like healing reduction and dampening, but also keeps them completely offensive. Like I mentioned before, a stun isn’t only a good window to kill someone, you are also shutting down the damage from that target completely!
Sure, their damage is also an issue, but if they can’t stay so offensive due their stun every 20 seconds, they will also have to run more often and defensive cds of the opponents are more often available during the setups.
Maybe, personally I think it is already the best idea of what the devs would be willing to invest the time for. Always remember, that the devs hate to invest time to the game, especially if it is for PvP only.
Imagine having no trinket CD when left to 1v1 a Rogue as a healer because other team mates are dead. You get the Rogue close, they vanish, cheapshot, kidney, blind, sap (waiting for full kidney again), sap again, then another sap, then a full cheapshot x 2 and 5 sec kidney again then of course dead during.
Rogues are ridiculous at the moment, and have been for quite some time now. Their control is absolutely absurd.
(Don’t even get me started on Shadowduel).
Should be a thing for melees. As a caster you need to stop cast to interrupt but melee can just ooga booga and interrupt. I think adding GCD for melee kicks would actually fix a lot of stuff
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and they cannot complain about step kick macro cos it needs to be pressed 2 times anyways, 1 for the step and 2 for the kick
like half rogue toolkit is gcd free and the ones that are have 0.5sec shorter than normal
they will say that it slows down their gameplay etc but they rly would deserve atleast kick on gcd tbh especially on this meta
but blizzard dont read eu forum so its w/e anyways but still a good suggestion imo for what it matters 
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Huge W, big respect for not taking the bait. Keep going brother.
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Noone is devaluing you as a person because of CR. People are essentially questioning your credentials.
If you’re sick, you want to hear the opinion of a doctor. No matter how smart your high-schooldropout friend might otherwise be, his opinion on your physical state has less value than that of a trained professional.
If you translate that to this topic, a player with high CR plays the game on a whole different level than someone on low CR, and has much more insight into how the game is played. It’s as if I’m trying to tell Christiano Ronaldo “Hey mate, you’re doing it all wrong, you shoulda passed there, learned that move in my weekend futsal group. Source trust me bro.”
You can make statements, and voice your opinions, noone has a problem with that. But the flipside to that coin is that opinions can be rightfully questioned, and deemed right or wrong by evidence. If you can’t produce any evidence, the best course of action is to concede.
There’s no shame in being wrong, there’s only shame in being wrong, being shown you are wrong, deep inside knowing you are wrong but refusing to admit you are wrong.
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See above. It related to experience vs reasoning. In short, here are the truths that I provide
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You can reason to conclusions without experience, in systems that are mathematical, otherwise a computer would not be able to run without a human constantly setting everything into motion.
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The experience of a high CR player is an experience I do not have, but your ability to reason is not binary, it is not either you can or you cannot. We can analyse and discuss the balance of classes without CR and at the same time recognize that high CR players provide additional points of view.
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If high CR balancing is the right perspective to balance from is an assumption. Perhaps it is? But I don’t think we investigated enough whether or not this assumption is correct. However, one thing is true, namely that given the same class, the same gear, and the same situation, you pressing skill A and getting output number B should be the same for me, because the underlying logic is mathematical and equal regardless of experience. Therefore we should be able to discuss the tweaking of these numbers on grounds that are not experience. Then after that, we can evaluate the value of incorporating experience.
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Questioning credentials is human nature. It is a very human thing to question truth (and it is why philosophy has focused on truth value for thousands of years). However, one must recognize that truth has two components to it, objective truth (science, such as physics, math, geometry, the external world), for which all agree can be the same, such as a number, and subjective truth (experience, first person point of view, phenomenology), which come from experience. I agree with you, that on the grounds of the subjective component to PvP, I do not have high CR experience, and thus cannot talk from that perspective. But I am also not trying to, instead I am trying to direct my focus to the objective components in a discussion to find the best tweaking. The important part about the objective components is that they depend not on experience, so it doesnt matter to the throughput of your classes abilities whether or not your CR is 0 or 2000, it should produce the same output, such that a low CR player at 1000 CR on a Retribution Paladin, pre nerf, but high ilvl, should be able to produce the same insane throughput in a short time, without needing the skills to play high lvl pvp. May that player be bad at competitive pvp? Yes, but is that player also generating too high a throughput of damage? Yes. Both can be true at the same time, and equally, I can be terrible at PvP and discuss the underlying throughput of numerical skills at the same time, they are not mutually exclusive.
ahahaha man you think anyone is gonna read these crazy wall of texts? I don’t think you’re stupid, or incapable of getting good, or any of these things. Maybe you’re just not interested in arena. I’m saying you’re not the guy I would trust to make balance changes.
It is not my problem that you have a limit to your reading capabilities, and it does not make what I am saying less true. It is your problem alone to increase your reading capabilities both in the context of understanding and in the context of text length reading. If you have problems with your attention span, you should contact a doctor as that is an early sign of ADHD.
Why you would say you dont trust me to make balance changes, makes sense in the context of the experience component, but as I mentioned above (which you probably did not read), discussing the objective numerical framework of WoW is not unreasonable. You can make classes skill based, but if you give 1 class the ability to get 300% damage throughput, then people will exploit it, so trying to balance throughput in the numbers to be an equal potential is again not unreasonable. And you thinking this methodology is somehow wrong is beyond me, it is literally how programmers solve problems. BUT AGAIN the experience of high CR players can be valuable, but it doesnt disqualify the numerical analysis beneath. What you are implying here is that the WoW Developers are only capable of doing their job IF they themselves have high CR. Is it true that WoW Developers make mistakes because of lack of knowledge of arena? Yes, so we agree that high CR provides SOME knowledge that is unique and valuable to this group, but I am essentially only want to discuss the numerical framework beneath, and how to tune the numbers such that the Rogue potential is equal to other classes, while at the same time retain the class fantasy.