When will the alliance finally lose?

Lore Story
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I’m not assuming her role, I’m just guessing that she will have one. That’s a difference.

It’s not about delving, but elaborating what I meant. We were talking about how many forces would take part in that final confrontation in Midnight and you said that we would be the third party anyway, so it doesn’t matter who the contenders are.

I explained why I (partially) disagree with that statement by highlighting the connection the mortals of Azeroth have to the Light religion - without really understanding its agenda. Having these two forces battle without involving or influencing the mortals, would be boring - even the Legion, a more prominent villain (without relevant allies on Azeroth) took their time to corrupt some of the Tauren tribes of High Mountain.

I also liked that theory, even though Magni’s recent story seems to make that unlikely.

So far, yes. The TWW cinematic was also something new and looked more like Diablo than Warcraft. They conveyed the “political” part in Legion quite well, you could really see how the races of Azeroth came together in these orders and how they worked together or clashed sometimes. I don’t expect FF14-storytelling, but I’d really be surprised if the long awaited final battle between Light and Dark was just… a patch without any story impact. :sweat_smile:

Because we already had that in Legion. They have to add something new.

True, but… having the same protagonists for three expansions would be kind of lame - especially because Thrall and Anduin have already had so much story in the game.
If this Saga is supposed to be a mega-event to celebrate WoW, it would be kind of weird just to focus on three characters. Not to mention that the Sunwell will almost certainly bring Lor’themar and Thalyssra into the mix. Just like Moira and Dagran, they could have interesting side stories. I mean, there’s that other datamining about a possible Goblinraid - and they did set up Gazlowe in Azj-Kahet. So there’s definetly room for smaller stories with different characters.

The criticism wasn’t necessarily “We weren’t on Azeroth!”, but… “How is all that relevant for Azeroth?” As I said, had they made a stronger connection between these dimensions and sent us back to Azeroth from time to time, it might have worked out.
As far as I can tell, that Kyrian questline about the farmer in Redridge was received quite well. Shadowlands had gaping plotholes (“Hey, the Arbiter doesn’t work and Zovaal gets stronger with every drop of anima, but let’s just keep throwing souls into the stream anyway!” :slight_smile: ) and many other flaws - the missing connection to Azeroth was just one among many.

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Well, you are so optimistic I might call it utopian. Good luck with that, but I can promise you an argument based on that attitude won’t ever get close to convincing me of anything. And I already said above what I think is the biggest menace to WoW’s world-building. And the “let’s not bind ourselves to tightly with clear lore”-attitude is not something that Blizzard has denounced.

Could you elaborate on that? I’m not sure where you see the connection? I don’t really understand where Magni would disprove anything here.

On that I very, very much disagree. An ensemble cast that has a chance to develop plausible dynamics between the different characters and where you know which characters can shin in which situations, is a great thing, that requires the characters to stick around. Why would I watch a show that changes the main characters all the time “because it would be boring otherwise”? And even in the MMO space, can you really say that WoW’s constant changes have done a better job of telling character stories than a close team like FF’s scions, GW2’s cast, and so on? I really have no idea where the idea of boredom would come in there.

I’d agree that there are problems with the character choices in TWW’s main cast (like always in WoW they somehow insist on making kings and chieftains into the adventuring protagonists), but that’s a different matter…

I really don’t care if it “celebrates” anything. I don’t think it should. WoW has had a hard enough time of telling a halfway decent story without giving themselves such useless handycaps. That said 3 characters sound like they would be too few, yes. But even with just the TWW cast, we already have quite a few more. With more to come in the future naturally, without going out of their way to cast people that might fit. Going to Silvermoon we will most likely add some prominent elf, as you said, to add to the TWW team that by that point hopefully already has established itself a bit. But Calia? That seems like a different matter entirely, if the story isn’t going to her turf.

Do they? To do what? Variations on the same story type with some different conditions are also a long-tested element of serialized content. If I like a thing, I am more likely to like something similar than something that’s too different. Now, I agree that it would be better, if we could actually get some political and social depths in here. But I already told you that I am not really entertaining the possibility of that happening in WoW at all. And if we’re repeating Legion-style stories with a bit more interesting character dynamics and arcs that sounds fine to me. WoW’s audience isn’t that sophisticated in terms of story-enjoyment. They couldn’t be, while swallowing what they got.

Not “necessarily”, no. But often it was exactly that. I am quite sure I myself criticized them for not setting the story on Azeroth at all, comparing that specific problem to WoD. And I wasn’t alone in that at all.

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As fas as I understand the theory - correct me, if I’m wrong - the visions / the radiant song that the mortals of Azeroth experience, don’t really come from Azeroth’s Worldsoul, but from Beledar aka a shard of T’uure instead.

It would imply that back in Cataclysm, it was also not Azeroth, but T’uure who answered Magni’s ritual and turned him into Diamond. It would imply that Magni was hearing T’uure all along. That would bring some questions with it. First of all, how could a Naaru shard use elemental rituals or communicate, when the Naaru is not even reassembled? Why would it make Magni believe that he’s talking to the Worldsoul? How did Magni not realize that a slumbering titan’s presence is different from T’uures when he talked to Argus’ Worldsoul, a “real” titan?

Magni’s questline confirmed that he’s hearing and seeing visions from the same being that Thrall and Anduin sensed in the WSS cinematic.
So if all that would have come from T’uure, that would also mean that Blizzard lied to everyone at BlizzCon when they said that “Azeroth is calling us”.

It’s definetly a matter of taste, but despite being a huge fan of Thrall and Anduin, I think that they got more than enough screentime already over the years. What would be wrong if they took a break till the finale of Midnight after TWW, especially after exploring and fighting in caves in TWW? That said, it’s still early in the expansion and we don’t know what the patches might bring - hell, we’re not even in Harronir territory yet.

I’m not saying they should go out of their way, of course it has to fit in the story. Just like Magni was a logical choice for Azeroth’s business. If the confrontation in Midnight will take place in Quel’Thalas, it’s obvious that the Elven leaders will be involved.

:arrow_right: If :arrow_left: Quel’Thalas was attacked by the Light/Void armies… who would be the closest ally for the Blood Elves to call to their aid?

But it is always a risk. To this day, people call BfA’s Saurfang-Sylvanas-story “Siege of Orgrimmar 2.0”. Even after the changes that Blizzard made with these fantastic cinematics and character moments, it will always be “The story Siege of Orgrimmar could have been.”

Sure, still: Had they put more effort into the integration of the Shadowlands into the WoW lore, instead of making it an entirely different story, people might have at least enjoyed it more. Just like Red Ridge or the use of the Soul Engines in the Forge of Souls, you could have gone through the veil to see how the dimensions interact with each other. In WoD, it wasn’t the setting that bugged me personally - I loved the zone and character design and didn’t even miss Azeroth - it was the lackluster story and the incompetence of the Iron Horde that ruined that expansion for me.

Just out of curiosity, unrelated topic:
After the flustercuck that Shadowlands was storywise… If Blizzard revealed in the future that Zovaal was actually dominated the entire time and it was all a masterful scheme by the Primus - what would you say to that?

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Ah, no, as I understand it it is just the radiant song that would come from Beledar/T’uure, everything else, the Azerite stuff, Magni’s role and so on would still be attributed to the world soul itself. T’uure wouldn’t replace the world soul, he’d just be a player on #TeamLight that has an interest in warning us when the cosmic Void and Dimensius’ harbringer are moving. It’s still all about Azeroth herself.

And I am on the opposite end here. I find the cast horrible, but I think a consistent cast is better than none. :wink: If ypu want your series to work, you don’t just change the party all the time. You can get rid of characters, when they don’t work (or whose actors are out), sure, but the point is to find something that does work and to stick to it. To give the audience the cozy feeling to understand the characters, what they want, who they are, and what they might do. “Who was that guy again?” is never a good situation to have for a protagonist.

The ones the devs already mentioned: All the elves. That’s already more than there should be, as far as I’m concerned.

That’s because the SoO-plot sucked. You are supposed to copy what worked fine, not was was already disliked. If I call an addon “Shadowlands 2.0” that’s a very different thing from calling it “MoP 2.0”. Apart from that, some people will always complain, sure. But jumping from one model to the next is a recipe to pleasing no one… which kinda is what WoW’s story has been doing for quite a while.

Besides my point I would say. I was musing that the feedback might have made Blizz be careful with otherworldly settings. For that’s it’s not that important if the critics were right.

I’d be annoyed that they want to go into Shadowlands lore again. Let that crap die. I don’t want a soft retcon to its story, I want a soft retcon of its existence.

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Id say actually that forsaken might actually come to Quel’Thalas aid too considering the history between em, so there might be actually hope for forsaken loyalists to have somekind of progression

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If only they expanded on Shadow Naaru.
There is still one in Maldraxxus afterall.
Can come up with a story of a rogue Void Naaru that escaped the others that tried to restore him/her to the Light. Then flees to Telogrus rift.

Since the Naaru tried to use the Draenai to hunt him/her down. But with the Rendorei keeping this Shadow Naaru safe he/she can reach out to other Naaru.

Blizzard has for so long ignored the dual nature of Naaru.
Whatever plans there are for the Sunwell it will involved the corpse of Muuru the current battery of the Sunwell.

This is not World of PeaceCraft. People are tired of Alliance and Horde hand holding to face the latest big bad evil as well.
Would be great if they explore Battle for Azeroth story telling. As in the Alliance done their thing on Kul Tiras and the Horde done their thing on Zandalar.

Different threats that effect the individual factions. Perhaps the return of a strong Amani Troll Tribe across the Eastern Kingdoms.

The Alliance has always been a Light based faction. High Exarch Yrel will not forget the bonds shared despite a roughly 30 year time skip.
Her zeal will be different yes.

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yeah, its not world of peacecraft BUT, hehre is the thing: I and Senti explaidn multiple times, the faction war story is so worn out that it doesn’t take anyone with it anymore and hardly anyone really wants it. The are also tired of this stoy which lead to knowthing and yes, you don’t have to like it but it gives them both time to breathe and recover.

And in the end neither side comes off well, let alone it always comes down to a stauts quo despite everything.

Do you seriously belife a storyline in which the allaince woud be the aggesor and kick horde arroudn at the first half of the expansion only later to reurn the favor- ony haveing them after the leadership gone/removed and not afcing ANY consequenzes woud satysfie anyone?

To be honest, I’d rather be bedint without something like that than flush the whole broth up for the third time

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The Forsaken help the Gilneans. The Forsaken help the Night Elves with Belameth. The Forsaken help Silvermoon. At some point the Forsaken lost all their Edge, that made people wanna play them in the first place. They are not metal anymore outside of how they look. They used to slay Dalaran Mages in Silverpine Forest, and then raise those to expand their forces during Cataclysm.

That’s why people say “world of peacecraft” with a long yawn. At some point, everyone is equal morally, and there is no story anymore. Just a big watered down Azeroth, where everyone is the same mentally. Isn’t that boring? In the end, wow is an entertainment product, and I don’t think the Forsaken are entertaining after Shadowlands.

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You are right about em losing their edge but it doesnt mean forsaken were completly cold hearted monsters, it was pragmatism in past when they saw enemies everywere. Im fine em helping others but they really should show some of their older values too. It would be cool if they came help for the blood elves and used their nasty warfare against void or light

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Mending the wounds storyline would be good, if its done well. Wow doesnt excatly need faction conflict it could be just azeroth vs outside forces. But mending the wounds means both sides should show they were wrong with different acts. Ideal for midnight would be even gilneas coming for help for forsaken. I dont mean completly peace but understanding, they all are in this battle together. Sametime races should keep their identities

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The alliance needs a big loss so the story be balanced.

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Or… The Horde needs a big W instead?..

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I’ve played almost only on alliance side.
Yet you would be a fool to think all alliance players are happy about the deaths of horde leaders. And that no one had a “taste of what it feels like to be sad loser”.

I’ve played alliance main reason being all my friends wanted to play gnomes at the begining. Second reason I started despising some horde leaders starting around Cataclysm. And playing a NE druid I created my own narratives of rejecting Varian’s actions. Never going to Stormwind.
Varian is as bad a person as Garrosh was (stubborn, missplaced pride, creates conflicts, etc.)
There was a time I wished NE and Tauren would quit their factions and create a new faction of druid, capital city of Moonglade… there was I time I wished I could check the “at war” box with Stormwind in the faction window, like you can do with Bootybay.
(never understood why druids don’t have their own language btw, but that’s another topic).

In the end, what did the horde lose ? Garrosh ? you really gonna cry for that ? Sylvanas ? same stuff. Although I was pissed at how the character started to changed at LK and forward.

I took it personnaly when Blizzard killed Cairn and then Vol’Jin. I hated it that the Night Elves followed blindly the former stupid kind Varian.
It pissed me off that Jaina and Thrall didn’t quit their faction and watch Garrosh and Varian kill each other from afar. (well, Jaina had a f’ing good reason to kill Garrosh).

Like someone said, Horde was based on honor and Mak’gora. You can’t expect a group of people living with this tradition to have 0 deaths.
Then 2 (3, you could count Kael’Thas) leaders went bonkers, and got what they deserved (and unfortunatelly took with them one of the best).

I see what you mean, but it’s also quite logical with the lore of each faction. Most of these losses (all of them ? ) come from within.

Now playing NE Demon Hunter and getting up to date with the lore (paused a long time), I would have loved to see Maiev arrest and put in custody Tyrande. An event leading to some kind of internal civil war. Because in the end, what she did is not very different from what a certain young dude did 10’000 years ago… But she gets away with it.
My point is, alliance did not lose as many leaders as the horde did. True. Does not mean we don’t feel frustrated with the lore and our leaders.

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That would be great if the alliance had the roles reversed for once to make them feel what the Horde went through the past 12 years. Otherwise they wouldn’t act from their high horse all the time.

I can make the list again of each NPC we lost.

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The point is that we ALL lost these NPCs. That I am identifying with one side of the story doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy a good antagonist and am not sad to see it squandered. If the Alliance characters are well-written and interesting you lose, if they are killed, because the world of Warcraft is poorer without them. And if they aren’t well-written and interesting, you haven’t made the Alliance playerbase “lose” anything, because you only gave an opportunity for hopefully better characters to rise after the dead ones.

But yeah, I know that you’re perfectly willing to cut off your nose to spite your face, just wanted to say it.

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Okay, maybe I wasn’t clear.

I played alliance. More by default (friends) than conviction. This does not mean I identify as alliance, nor that I like the leaders.

The loss of Vol’Jin, Cairn or Saurfang made me feel more the “taste of sad loser” than the death of Varian (at which I thought “ah, finally. Hopefully a less stupid character will take his place”).
You don’t need to kill characters to make people feel whatever. And you don’t need to be from a specific faction to feel the loss.

Wanting to “even the score” above all else would most certainly result in bad writing and is not a good thing either.

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all alliance leaders are alive. Even the original ones. Those from the Horde are dead however. And that is unfair.

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This is a faction based game. Do you think Bioware or Zenimax would only make one faction suffer on purpose? Of course not. Other games make story balance a cornerstone of all decisions.

And just as TWW showed us, Blizzard is not interested to make new characters for the Horde. They will keep using the old ones from the alliance instead.

this is what balance looks like in work.

Bretons, Altmer and Nord represented.

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The problem really is that the writing team always were people with their own ideals and ideas. They really never knew what to do with horde cause they don’t understand the ideas the different races there represent.

It is becoming too much into one side getting all the glory and marketing.

Sametime they don’t even know from alliance side what to do with some races, night elves are completly different race what they now are and it really dampens down the whole point of em too.

It would be good if the writing team had different povs and opinions and who would actually understand the points of different races.

Alliance is getting pushed more and more specially humans cause its so easy way to market as the typical fantasy heroes. Truthfully there isnt many people who actually care for the lore that deeply as we who talk about in here, so its an easy way to market to masses the pure heroic good guys and horde being just monsters. which is why they rewrite things so hard too to point that way

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Dwarves, Elves and humans is the only fantasy horizon Blizazrd ever touched.