You mean orcs being descended from the giants of draenor/outland or my admittedly crackpot way of trying to describe how the orcs and humans are different in spite of both having titan heritage?
For what its worth, I was trying to put it into perspective by using real world examples.
It really is just see and try to explain what blizzard hasn’t. All we really know is that generations on generations the colossi became smaller until we ended up with ogres and finally orcs. We don’t know if it was genetical degeneration as I put it or if that was just built in the design and was always Aggrammars intention, it’s why I said or maybe stabilization (which would be it was as aggrammar intended all along).
If I talk in maybe’s or possibly’s, do not assume I am professing truths.
Just because they’re nomads (and that was mainly due to their nature and lack of desire for Conflict against other species) doesn’t mean they don’t have land they consider ancestral. Or do you believe that the dwarves were in the right there. For the reminder here’s the quest text regarding the dwarves.
"The dwarves of Bael Modan show no respect for my land. Horrendous blasts drive holes deep into the ground as noisy machines rip apart the hills. Lands which once served as home and provider to my tribe are now riddled with destructive dwarves.
Attempts at reaching a diplomatic resolution have failed. Now is the time for decisive action.
Drive the dwarves from the Bael Modan excavation by force and bring to me the journal of their leader, Prospector Khazgorm."
And the line he gives you before you turn in the quest
“Many innocent tauren lost their lives or were forced off their ancestral birthplace when the dwarves of Bael Modan arrived. My land must be reclaimed!”
The journal of the Dwarf we reclaim during the quest also makes it clear that the expedition gave zero damn about locals and the nature believing their mission is more important than anyone else and wanted the full on army intervention to establish a foothold for the Alliance. If by your own logic Horde loses any right to complain due to Southshore (which btw was an act of Forsaken and not the Horde as whole) then this act by Dwarves should mean Alliance can’t complain about getting ousted off their lands now right?
Of course we know it’s NOT right. The war and conflicts on Azeroth isn’t black and white. But some people seem to love double standards which were sadly reinforced by Blizzard’s storytelling the more expansions we got and the more they lost the ability to retain the sense of ballance without falling into moral favoritism.
Outside of discussion and not meant to be used to disparage your arguments… For all that sacred please use the spellchecking tool or something because reading your posts is hard.
If you’re playing that card, then all land is Black Empire land. They ‘had Azeroth’ way before the titans and then trolls ever did. Or Elemental Lords land if you want to go back even further and disregard any notion of ‘civilization’.
I draw the line with the first civilized beings that evolved from Azeroth herself when the titanforged where still in Northrend. And that race is the trolls.
Ignoring the loud and obnoxious crowd it’s clear that the line is hard to be drawn though it does seem like most usually default to “Most recent owner”. Which yes will put Humans in the role of the victims more often than not. Keep in mind the factions aren’t as old as it seems though. Alliance itself was only created 2 generations prior during Arthas’ Father’s rule. A lot of conflicts happened within two-three generations and the ownership of the land changed. I mean the conflict with Gurubashi Empire only happened because Llan took Lothar and Mediv and provoked the trolls. And would have ended badly for Stormwind if Mediv wasn’t more than slightly biased in his judgement.
Convenient.
So basically you draw the line at what you want.
Fits your MO, honestly.
Yeah… If we follow the real world, it’s basically; the victor is the owner. Whether this was victory in battle/conquest or negotiations or even deceit.
But if trolls were the first civilized beings that evolved in azeroth then his argument holds, if your guys debate is “who were first” and “who the land belongs to” as I interpret the previous convos. He made an valid argument that need an valid counter argument and ad hominems dont count
This is what I like about erevien threads, I learn new things about wow lore from almost everyone of them whether from him or other people. I had no clue for example that trolls were the first beings in azeroth for one. It’s like going back to school, learning so many new things about video games
I really am trying not to make a pattern here, but why are a lot of Alliance defense arguments allowed to make huge elaborations, RL legitimacies and player-based descriptions?
Meanwhile, I often have to contend with: “HORDE EVIL. ORC BAD. BLAAARGH.” Yes, we know. That’s not the bloody point.
I really want to discuss the nuances of Alliance controversies too sometimes, but holy hell…
Oh undeniably. Since we only started the Story of Azeroth in Warcraft 1 during which the humans are the most recent “owners” we naturally assume thier side in the coming conflicts. It’s of course not helped by the fact many things have been retconed as the series went on. Even as far as Warcraft 3 which shortened the First and Second War to only last about 5 years total in order for Thrall’s Age to make sense.
I’m honestly annoyed by BfA because of the wasted potential and full on shift to pushing one side as evil and unredeemable (or dumb at the very least) while removing all shades of grey on the other side. It would be so easy to have the fourth war be started by alliance as both Jaina and Greymane were constantly pushing for it. Simply because alliance had more notable characters that were pushing for the confrontation and could lead young Anduin that path. Instead all for the most contrived of retcons and plot twists we had Garrosh 2.0 without even baseline excuse of the new Warchief’s inexperience and short temper. Shame, really.
The Black Empire was a civilization. They were here before trolls.
So, no his argument doesn’t hold.
And if the reason is ‘they didn’t evolve here’, well… That’s just cherry picking whatever context supports his perefence; in which case my reply holds.
The Black Empire was the dark civilization established by the Old Gods after their arrival on primordial Azeroth. It reigned over much of the world after the Elemental Lords and their armies failed to repel the Old Gods. The empire was ultimately destroyed by the titan-forged armies of the Pantheon.
After the Fourth War, the Black Empire was recreated by N’Zoth, before being defeated by Azeroth’s champions with the [Heart of Azeroth].
They sell you trinkets that may or may not work for the purpose they are purchased, but they did free themselves from the trolls and invented the cola or kaja or something the like so I do like them.
Sure arguments can be made for different groups to be considered as the “rightful owner” of the land of Azeroth, but “first native civilization” is at least as good (if not better) than others, so it shouldn’t be dismissed as mere convenience. It does have merit.
