When will we finally be able to avenge Rastakhan?

Community General Discussion
342

So, not you then? Check.

:kissing_heart:

Seriously though: Being ‘evil’ (silly term, because that really depends on viewpoint) does not disqualify a civilization from being a civilization. Our own history has various examples.

343

I said:

And it seems You agree that they don’t fit the “civilization” part:

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344

Not what ‘the modern races’ would call civilization. But the Elemental Lords ruled the planet. That’s fact.

345

The Troll Empire was not evil. They mostly settled on empty lands apart from Zul’aman were that Kithrax general slept.

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346

I did not say any such thing. Did you read my reply?
I didn’t mention trolls at all. I was talking about The Black Empire and about civilizations in our own real life history.

347

Ok then, if that’s Your argument, then I’m gonna finish our little chat with a classic quote:

348

The Black Empire was infact evil we have enough evidence.

349

I’m not drawing a line. I’m asking.
And I’ve only been given biased convenient answers.

Making it a very specific narrow definition statement is just manipulating the outcome.

It’s the difference between:

  • Who’s the best basketball player on earth.
    and
  • Who’s the best basketball player between the ages of 20-35, with dark red curly hair and blue eyes.

Narrowing down what qualifies to fit a certain narrative is manipulative.

From our perspective, yes.
From the void’s perspective; not at all. The light/order/titans are evil.

That was my point. Evil depends on your perspective.

350

The Titanforged were in their facilities when the Trolls settled the world so they were in the place first.

351

Please try and address my arguments. Not switch to something I wasn’t talking about. That just feels like you’re trying to get the attention away from it because you know you’re wrong.

Anyway… If ‘who was there first’ is the thing that matters: Elemental Lords win.
Pure and simple.

352

You’ve been answered, You just refuse to accept it.

It “first native civilization” is neither specific nor narrow, and does hold merit.

First is quite self explanatory if we want to talk about “rightful owner”. If we would omit that part, the definition would be way to broad (we’d have to consider every brief owner through the history).

Native is also easy to explain - native creatures have the most connection to the land, nad therefore should be considered as best suited for rightful ownership.

Lastly, civilization is there because it implies that the group in question actually cares about owning the land at all. In contrast, according to wiki:

to the elementals, the victory was secondary as they wished to continue their endless cycle of chaos.

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Elemental_wars

If someone doesn’t care about the lands ownership, how could we consider him a rightful owner?

This is why I said, and will repeat:

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353

No, the goalposts were moved. Several times.
And I refuse to accept THAT. :blush:

Hell yes it is.
Stop lying.

Well let me give my answer: Rightful owner is whoever owns it now. If someone else takes it; it’s theirs. It’s World of Warcraft after all.

Just like modern day americans aren’t going to just pack up and leave and give the country back to native americans. It’s theirs now. No matter how unfair that may be from our modern point of view.

So, I guess we’re done with this discussion.

354

You mentioned WoW, but then You said:

Which refers to real life, so I’ll just say that I hope that You only support that belief:

For the purpose of backing up Your biased opinion in this discussion, and don’t really condone forceful acquisition of land in current conflicts around the world.

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355

Yeah, that’s how examples work; sometimes they reference something else to make it clear what kind of thing you’re talking about.

Welcome to ‘language 101’. :sweat_smile:

I don’t like your insinuations. We’re done talking.

356

It’s You who brought up real world stuff to back up their argument, don’t be surprised to be called out on that.

But I’m glad to hear this

Is just

Without any actual reasoning or arguments behind it.

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357

You mentioned answers, so I gave mine. With an example. Just an example.
And it would be very believable if ‘whoever is living in some place on Azeroth’ feels the same way; they’re not just going to move because centuries or even millennia ago someone else lived there.

Stop making it into something it isn’t.
It’s a pathetic way to try and demonize me.

358

more the, tehy are also titanforged- which woud be funny since it even breaks ereviens own argument

i was from wok on on the bus while writing this and my free trial od Depll runs out.

point to the qiraji
the were also a civiilization, even with a social cast

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359

Min’loth from the third troll legend is a strong contender to the title of most impressive characters in WoW

https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/The_Third_Troll_Legend

360

That’s fair. My apologies if it sounded rude.

As much as it’s possible to call his rambling here arguments I don’t think the titanforged status matters here. Trolls at least for a sizeable portion of the lore used to be one of the first species fully native to Azeroth. Even if their birth is now attributed to Well of Eternity they’re still magnitude older than other civilizations that rose after the fall of the Black Empire. At the absolute peak of their power the titanforged were yet to succumb to the curse of flesh.

361

By that rule of 3, neither were many races of Azeroth with humans, And they did not go on to exterminate everything in their way. The trolls themselves were extremely hostile and xenophobic towards practically anything that moved.

Not all Arakkoa were hostile.

Agrammar goal with Grond was to control everything related to the sporebounds, not eradicate all traces of it.