Due to not wanting people related in the issue not being labeled, I’m writing this on a guildless alt. I’m looking for insight and advice on this - lollers and “quit your guild” commenters are advised to move reading another thread from here.
There was recently an incident in a RP focused guild which’s leadership I’m responsible for. A person joined and appeared active, cooperative, forward-thinking and thoughtful for some time OOC and they became a significant person regarding to guild RP also, but slowly that started to change and people started “dividing” in the guild both IC and OOC. He just left recently with no proper reason given, it was all sudden and the only reason was “I dont like these methods” although for months before he had no issue with any of it. There is also his refusal to explain or clarify those reasons when contacted, the worst thing is that he took most of our actives with him and now they seem to be somehow thinking the mess was their fault… I don’t want to oblige people to stay if they don’t enjoy it with my guild, but having someone “blow up” your guild and leave you very little to go on with just demands my concern on the issue!
Another concerning thing is that the person (who was creating this discord both IC and OOC and been vague about reasoning his actions) still keeps contacting my remaining active guildmates but refuses to answer to my OOC attempts to contact them and solve the matter. How his actions affected the guild doesn’t seem to bother him at all. I mostly gave up on it and give it some time. Ofc people are free to stay in contact with whomever but I feel that this person is trying to undermine my guild and turn people away from it due to these things being “off” about his behavior. As a responsible GM I’ve tried also to ask if I had upset them and other guildmates (who were involved) somehow and been asking this not only out of my concerns mentioned above but also because I want to know if my actions played part in this. They seem to be talking to me even less and less, especially if I ask about RP.
In such situation, fellow GMs and those with more experience, what would you advise me to do? I don’t want to be targeted by slander nor want to pressure anyone out of possible misjudgements, but I do want to set things right and straight. If those people are lost, how would you advise me to go on and how could I prevent undermining or sabotage from happening in the future?
Sounds like a Guild stealer to me (Someone who purposely joins a guild to steal its members and form a new one.)
What I advice is you warn your guild members against his activities by telling them this story, and if they have a brain, they’ll see he isn’t trusty. I also suggest you stop trying to contact him because if he is a guild Stealer then he knows what he’s doing and probably doesn’t care.
To stop this from happening in the future, make sure you don’t allow enough room for people to undermine you in your guild by keeping a good system in place, make sure that if you are the guild leader, you have trustworthy friends in the important ranks in order not to undermine you, and don’t let popularity be the defining factor of who has power within the guild, be stern and put people in their place if you believe they are trying to pull any stunt.
Also, and you don’t have to do it here, let other guild leaders you know about this person so they don’t suffer the same.
If the guild you run doesn’t provide the RPers an atmosphere which they enjoy, they are under no obligations to stay.
You can’t poach people, unless they’re holding the people to a gunpoint IRL and telling them to leave the guild in favor of theirs.
If they leave simply because they’re promised better, you’re probably better off without those people anyway. But if they leave because the other person can provide something better, maybe it’s something you need to look into.
It’s kind of problematic if people don’t talk with you, but that also kind of tells how far the situation has gone already.
p sure it’s very easy to poach people in the sense of, say, spreading false rumours and screencaps about the current leadership and then recommending your own very cool and based and EVEN muscular guild.
If people are gullible enough to follow out of context screenshots or rumors without proof, why would you want them as part of your guild in the first place? If anything, it’s like taking out the trash.
And ultimately, the person makes the decision to leave themselves.
Is it a dubious act to try and recruit people that are already guilded? Maybe.
Does that equal to poaching members? No. The guildies make their own decisions and (ultimately) carry their own responsibility.
Maybe it’s my pragmatic view on free markets and individual freedom & responsibility that biases me to lack “sympathy” for people who feel their guildies are being poached away, but I feel that I’m doing much more of a service by telling them the fact that
a) They’re better off of people who’re gullible enough to leave at the first sign / rumor of trouble.
b) If people are leaving you for something else, chances are that your guild isn’t providing the people what they want.
Guild leadership is in many ways a thankless job, a voluntary community service, but it doesn’t entitle you with respect, people, or significance unfortunately just by leading/forming one. You have to be actually capable and charismatic enough for people to feel that way about you.
It’s a bit like running group projects voluntarily.
You made me laugh. Well done. xD I’ll give you that.
Fam, I would move on. Sooner or later, if those members have actually been poached, they will soon realize that the grass is not greener on the other side - by which I would still turn them down for being fooled by the image of paradise.
Use intuition, show your current members you’re willing to listen to their concerns and work with them. Create something together and go from there. You’re not just a GM, you’re a person part of the community you’ve made. :3 Teamwork!!!
I am of a similar mind to Atahalni in this case. Been leading a guild for a while, and if someone wants to “Poach” my members, while it is incredibly shady and douchy, it is not something I would concern myself with. As long as you offer good quality in your guild, and a nice atmosphere, you ought not worry.
If people leave for the smallest things, or get swayed by some outside force and don’t even poke you or people in your guild about it, then frankly, whoever is “Poaching” them is doing you a favor, by removing them from your guild. They are not the kind of members you’d want in a guild, and would only be problem down the line.
So yes, I’d simply like to echo Atahlani, I think what he wrote hits the nail on the head.
The most productive way to go about it is to probably ask the members themselves whether there’s been some misinformation going around, or why they aren’t as active lately. Talk with them one-on-one if they don’t feel comfortable telling you in a public space etc.
If it turns out the issue is that the person who joined and left provided the kind of engagement these members were looking for, there’s no harm in noting down and trying to learn from that. From there you can contemplate yourself whether that’s the kind of engagement you want to work for yourself.
Thank you all for replies, advice and insight… not to mention good laughs Valor! Dud, I did worry about guild stealer or poacher and I’m glad you acknowledged instead of dismissing it. Ultimately I don’t know about their true motives therefore I won’t be blaming them for such - I’m going with how I’ve been feeling about it and how this has affected to us, hence the worry. Luckily the person in question didn’t get too many important tasks, he just became well-liked and important fast, therefore being able to influence people so well. He did help us few times in his own way but couldn’t be counted on in similar way as most people can.
Atahalni, we do agree on that they are free to leave and think for themselves obviously, especially now when communication hasn’t resolved much this far. Working with who remain is indeed the priority and gladly some of our actives also acknowledged what Aríenne did.
Lea, what you said was brilliant, having the (assumed) poacher do a favor! I like the idea of someone just chopping away the dead wood for free, but of course it also feels like someone is simply walking over your hard work callously. This is where the temptation to warn others comes in. We’ve had many people leaving due to wanting something else and how their choices & actions affect the guild is very different from how it is when someone intends to sabotage and cause harm as they do. Luckily this is one of just few cases, but I’m keen to learn preventing it.
Ata, also going to agree, guild leadership may be thankless work sometimes, but it’s rewarding when you have created something new and enjoyable with the people who are with you and you can count on it lasts more than few weeks even if real life needed more attention from time to time. Obviously it’s not easy to let go when you see “part of it” being taken away from you so unexpectedly and in less than appropriate manner.
“It would’ve happened sooner or later” is pretty much similar as acknowledging that perhaps few years later we have all moved on or WoW has died down. However it isn’t a reason to dismiss your desire to enjoy what is today, next week, next month, hopefully few months afterwards and so on. So this is where I feel I’ll have to ask people to stop nicely dismissing my concerns.
I know for a fact that there are people who can’t stand not being the top dog and actively destroy “rival” guilds via rumourmongering, conspiracy and embedded agents. It’s a sickness inherent in the political life and influence play of MMO RP servers and entirely unsurprising.
You couldn’t. You just need to hope other people in your guild are grown-ups and understand that siding with some sabotage tactics is not very a thing to do in a game that is supposed to be a hobby for everyone.
But hey, on a bright side, it is better than being “”“infiltrated”“” by a GM of another guild, who tries to bed your character/characters of guild officers in order to get some dirt or weird leverage. And that is a recorded case, mind.
I do remember the ‘guild destroyer’ drama from a few years ago. Targetted numerous large guilds. Weren’t they paid like, 10k or something by a ‘particular’ dwarf? I know of one rather intelligent individual that had a huge scheme planned out to cripple several large and well known guilds. Thankfully, logs of his plans were plastered all over the forum before he got a chance to make his move.
Even when people are OOC on these games, to them, the role of ‘dramalama’ or ‘puppeteer’ gives them a sense of personal satisfaction.
What is peer pressure? What is in-group and out-group? One can’t force but one can certainly pull people out of a guild through dirty and dishonourable ways - to deny these types of incidents happen is disingenuous at best.
Big Brand™ rp guilds are constantly searching for new bodies to get into their guilds, they dress themselves up with that big corporate smile and snare people in. Once poached from their wholesome guild they’re basically bullied into staying in that guild or face a harassment campaign and accusations thrown their way if they fall out of the “in group.”
Most people aren’t 4th dimensional chess wizards and are good people, so they use good faith in their interactions with others - strange concept I know. Of course there are those on this server who exploit that very well. The party at fault is the poacher not the poachee.
To address the OP, feel free to send an in-game mail to me about who’s doing this - i am about 3/4 certain It is likely a recurring candidate I am aware of.
Yes, and while that particular fiend is no longer an issue they built up a network of friends and chums with equally odious personalties which continue the original type of practices done by said individual. A handful of them are amazingly still not being hauled for a People’s Trial over it, especially considering they are considered “good” roleplayers for it.
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Dud, I did worry about guild stealer or poacher and I’m glad you acknowledged instead of dismissing it. Ultimately I don’t know about their true motives therefore I won’t be blaming them for such - I’m going with how I’ve been feeling about it and how this has affected to us, hence the worry. Luckily the person in question didn’t get too many important tasks, he just became well-liked and important fast, therefore being able to influence people so well. He did help us few times in his own way but couldn’t be counted on in similar way as most people can.