Where is Sylvanas ?


(Erevien) #21

She didn’t this one is you making this up. Malfurion dying was part of the plan all the time. That’s why she is furious with Saurfang when he later returns.

Conquering the Night Elf lands wasn’t the plan. Take it as hostage was to force a brutal surrender by Horde dictate on them was. Who is making up what now?

But she didn’t assume without evidence. Delaryn told her just that, when “But you can’t kill hope.” comment was made.

Oh damm you have no idea how close am I to reporting you. You really love to insult people when you feel like it right?

I am in no ways her bootlicker, if old gods give me a better offer or choice I will take it. She is just the best to grab until Baine drops his Alliance marked sympathies.

I really have no clue why you are this hostile. But just people disagreeing with you seems to send you off into attacks and insults it seems. Stay immature. Good luck with that attitude.


#22

Sylvanas’s eyes disappeared beneath the edge of her hood. “They lost their nation years ago. The Gilneans will be furious if the Alliance acts to help the kaldorei first,” she said. “The boy in Stormwind will have a political crisis on his hands. He is smart, but he is not experienced. What happens when Genn Greymane, Malfurion Stormrage, and Tyrande Whisperwind all demand differing actions?

Read it and weep. Oh wait, asking you to actually read the book in which this takes place would probably be too much.

You are. To follow up the quote from earlier:

He is not a high king like his father. The respect the others give him is a courtesy, not an obligation. Anduin Wrynn will rapidly become a leader who cannot act. If the Alliance will not march as one, each nation will act in its own interest. Each army will return home to protect their lands from us.”

This must be embarassing for you.

Ah, because a single person saying “You cannot kill hope.” proves that the Night Elf nation would not be demoralized and that the Alliance would not start splintering.

See, your problem is that you have the same standards of evidence as Sylvanas.

I do not want ot be lectured on civility by a guy who called for harassment of Blizzard employees (I refuse to kill another Horde leader as Horde player)

And how as that a insult? What would be the point of reporting that? As illustrated above, you easli assume things without evidence.

So you think Baine is the second best Horde leader. Cool. Also, you cannot defend a character this desperately and still reasonably deny you have a complex for them.

Pot calling the kettle black much?

You straight up lie to make your case, as proven above, yet presume to lecture others about being hostile?

If you want people to treat you with respect, stop acting so immature and rude.


(Erevien) #23

So advocating for demonstration is now the same as threatening someone with violence. Cool. Didn’t know that.

Let’s see. Alliance forces devided(Nightelfs and Gilneans are still at Darkshore). Alliance fleet was just destroyed. Anduin NEEDING Saurfang and his Rebellion to stand a chance getting rid of Sylvanas, well it doesn’t look like this woman is on the losing edge right now, do you think so? It seems like the diversion and demoralization is fully working out at the current state of events.

Answer this yourself. Is the Alliance a united front right now? Because I can’t see at least half of them somewhere else than Zandalar and the southern seas, where the major stage of the war moved.

Yep, definitly more insults. How civil. sips red wine from a golden cup with thalassian marks Keep going this level of discussion manners. It can only improve :).

I think of Baine whatever Blizzard is willing to give me to identify myself with him, Which is not very much. outside of his device function to bring both sides together in their fight against Sylvanas.

Because that is exactly what you are. You turn hostile against someone when you see them not being on the same board regarding Sylvanas as yourself is.

You started this level of speech. So I don’t see a reason to back out now.


#24

How would that work? Alliance would submit to blackmail? Even Tyrande herself would not let the horde keep the nightelves as hostages.
I don’t see what is lost by burning the tree (other than internal disagreements for the morality of the action). Yes alliance came upon the horde furious, but how would that not be the case anyway? Horde started a war…it was clear from the plan that half a victory, half a peace was not an option!!
On the other hand, nightelves were severely crippled.
Now, you can argue that they won battle of darkshore and made a show in Lordaeon, but anyone can see there was a divine intervention in both cases that made the victory possible.

I mean most of the Horde (& Sylvanas) actions would have been successful if Blizzard plot-writters didnt alter reality to make their story.
In my eyes Sylvanas/Saurfang not finishing malf is a sham, Jaina’s appearance at the right time (what a coincidence!) was hollywood-B-movie story telling and the bombing of the Zandalari fleet could rival james bond in terms of (lack of) realism.

From the way i see it Horde cannot loose. Sylvanas has a plan which we dont know about, a plan that involves creating a rebel faction somehow (otherwise the stupidity of blizzard plot writers knows no boundaries). If Sylvanas does not win by herself and her plan, all she has to do is to let the rebels take over.
They will strike a deal with the Alliance and no one will win.

So I say Sylvanas as it all covered. I have been killing Alliance since the game started, I have been killing them on the fields, in battlegrounds, in arenas, everywhere. If i wanted peace I would play sim city or something.
So we like Sylvanas and her plotting and planning and the fact that she makes people like Sereluna hate her is just a reason to praise our Warchief even more.


#25

The objective was to kill Malfurion and then use Teldrassil as bait/hostage to force the Alliance to surrender, when all hope seems lost. But that plan failed thanks to Saurfang not being able to finish the most simple and easiest orders every soldier learns by the books in training. Malfurion returned safe and sound to Stormwind and the Night Elfs still had hope left since their greatest hero was still alive and Alliance reinforcments from Stormwind on the way to breach the Horde blockade. So Sylvanas did the one thing to cripple the Night Elves(as people) permanent. Burning the Tree and the future of the species with it.

It’s debatable if Malfurion death would have had the impact Sylvanas wanted. A leader dying in a defiant fight against a much larger enemy army is how you create a martyr.

It would have been smarter to hold the tree hostage to prevent any Alliance counterattack instead of burning it and creating thousands of martyrs.


#26

No…no it is not and I never claimed so. I do not know where you even got that from.

No, not really. They are still united.

And winning according to Shaw.

Horde fleet destroyed and Horde in civil war.

He did not need him. The Alliance were already winning long before he did anything.

Yeah, for the Alliance that is. The Horde is on the brink of a civil war, and half of their leaders want to fight Sylvanas rather than the Alliance. Her plan worked out, just on the wrong target.

Yes.

A war where people are fighting on several fronts? Such a thing is unheard of. You must be a military genius to have spotten this thing that has never happened in any war ever. It is not like the Horde is doing the exact same thing.

AGain, how was that an insult. Do you not know what an insult is? If I were to call you a pathetic moron who prides himself on knowing warcraft lore, yet has huge gaps in his knowledge, who has fantasies of submitting to Sylvanas because he cannot stand up for himself, and goes to embarass himself to defend her on every opportunity, while pretending he does not like the Warchief at all because he knows that it a stupid position, yet cannot bare to face such in public, that would be an insult. But I did not say so. An insult is saying something negative about someone that is not true. Not saying negative things about the person they do not wat to hear.

Boy, have so you looked in the mirror lately?

You literally started this conversation by lying. You enter a conversation, knowing you were wrong, and pretended not to be, refuse to admit so when called out, and still expect to be treated with respect?

The fact that you claimed I started this “level of speech”, which is a low level of speech by the way, for me at least, is an insult. So please, physician, heal thyself.

I see these demands for civility have nothing to do with my behaviour, but your own arrogance and inflated sense of self-importance.

Like, I legit called you out on your lies about Sylvanas’ plans, with citations, and you cannot bring yourself to the basic level of intellectual honesty and respond to it. I will start being civil when you start doing so. Remember, you threw the first rock, not me.

It is not like she would have much choice. She would demand the Alliance free Teldrassil, Genn would demand focus on Gilneas. That would split the Alliance in Sylvanas mind. This is all explained in the book. Please read it instead of asking for clarification for everything.

The peace she promised, and a better guarantee of victory.

That is an argument against what she did.

Having Night Elves as hostages and the entire Alliance unable to fight is far better than having weakened night elves fighting.

You know this is a story right?

What is the game’s story genre again? Like, thing in stories happen when convenient, because that is the way the writer wants it to be. I wager your discomfort with the convenience of Jaina’s arrival has less to do with the quality of the writing, and more to do with a perceived narrative loss you are experiencing.

How? They are no closer to victory than when they started. The Alliance have way better odds, seeing as they still have a fleet with the night elves, and do not have a civil war. None of Sylvanas’ plans so far have worked out as intended. How is loss impercivable?

If your plan involved making your own people fight you, then you are a moron.

And where has that brought you? To the bottom of the ocean with two Horde cities in ruins, another one sacked, the Alliance winning on all fronts, the Horde in a civil war.

Ah, so this a about spite. Got it.


(Blunderhoof) #27

It’s debatable if Malfurion death would have had the impact Sylvanas wanted. A leader dying in a defiant fight against a much larger enemy army is how you create a martyr.

Yes, it’s debatable, however what’s not debatable is that it would have been a crippling blow to the Night Elves.
Look at how both Malfurion and Tyrande are portrayed in the (cringey) ‘Terror of Darkshore’ cinematic, they are the Night Elves, the normal Night Elves are just ghosts standing in their shadow. Malfurion is written and shown as this near godlike power druid that not only summons roots and trees to attack whole armies, no, he also kicks everyone’s aiss(including Saurfang) in hand to hand combat. Are we _really_going to just say that his death wouldn’t be a hard blow to the Night Elves…?

As for a ‘Martyr’…sure, but what does that matter? How is him getting decapitated and dead somehow this ‘boon’ to the Night Elves that should be avoided? I really don’t see how it’s somehow a big thing, in this scenario.

It would have been smarter to hold the tree hostage to prevent any Alliance counterattack instead of burning it and creating thousands of martyrs.

Again, I don’t understand the use of ‘martyrs’ here, this is only relevant to the Night Elves, how is it going to have an impact on the Horde?

I wasn’t a fan of burning down that abomination btw, however, how could they take hostages when portals are a thing? And them being actively opened and used, before Sylvanas gave the order to set the tree on fire?


#28

Yes, it’s debatable, however what’s not debatable is that it would have been a crippling blow to the Night Elves.

The tree had no actual military, so it didn’t cripple the army. The gains of taking the tree hostage far outweighed the gains of just burning it down. If Sylvanas hadnt burned the tree Undercity wouldn’t have fallen and the Alliance would have been paralyzed as any moves against the Horde would have meant the death of the people of Darnassus.

Look at how both Malfurion and Tyrande are portrayed in the (cringey) ‘Terror of Darkshore’ cinematic, they are the Night Elves, the normal Night Elves are just ghosts standing in their shadow. Malfurion is written and shown as this near godlike power druid that not only summons roots and trees to attack whole armies, no, he also kicks everyone’s aiss(including Saurfang) in hand to hand combat. Are we _really_going to just say that his death wouldn’t be a hard blow to the Night Elves…?

Again the gains of keeping him alive as a hostage would outweigh him killing some grunts. Nothing he did in Darkshore in 8.1 couldnt have been done by Tyrande.

mehow this ‘boon’ to the Night Elves that should be avoided? I really don’t see how it’s somehow a big thing, in this scenario.
Again, I don’t understand the use of ‘martyrs’ here, this is only relevant to the Night Elves, how is it going to have an impact on the Horde?

Because he would be an inspiration and a symbol to fight to the last for civilians and soldiers alike, which means more enemies to fight.

I wasn’t a fan of burning down that abomination btw, however, how could they take hostages when portals are a thing? And them being actively opened and used, before Sylvanas gave the order to set the tree on fire?

Portals are a slow means of transporation for a large group of people, and then there are the anti teleportaion wards.


#29

for some reason I have a feeling the both horde and alliance as they are now will sease to exists real soon, and we might get mixed factions, just something feels like this is the way Blizzard is going now, and this most likely have something to do whit what Sylvanas is planing, becuse I acutaly think she might plan to take over after Azhara.


#32

well malfurion is a druid with demigod lvl powers. So not having around is preferly anyway for the horde.


#33

Arguably, it is very much about who has the biggest fleet. That was the entire premise of the factions getting the Kul Tirans and the Zandalari on side. We needed their ships - that was the be all and end all. You can’t prosecute a war on multiple continents without vessels to transport soldiers and supplies for those soldiers to the warzones (not to forget ships to protect the supply/transport ships). Warcraft does have airships and magical teleportation, but the former is rarer than the game makes it seem and the latter much harder (tearing open a rift in space and time then holding it open for any extended period is meant to be super draining).

The Horde won a pyrrhic victory at Gilneas (they drove the Gilneans out, but failed to secure the kingdom) and another pyrrhic victory at Lordaeron. They were on the cusp of victory, but Jaina denied them at the last moment not once, but twice. That said, I would argue the Alliance suffered greater casualties and while the Horde did lose Undercity, they also denied it to the Alliance.

Teldrassil? Yeah, sure, I’ll give you Teldrassil as a win. Admittedly it all went to hell at the end, and according to the story the outnumbered, out-armed, out-manouvered and surprised Night Elves made them pay dearly for every inch of ground they took. So while the Horde won, it was costly, and it wasn’t the victory they wanted as both Malfurion and Tyrande escaped, and Teldrassil was burnt to ashes instead of being occupied.

Sylvanas is a very cunning leader and she is also very capable. She was the last Horde leader standing during the battle of the Broken Shore, after all. And she almost won the battle of Lordaeron not once, but twice, through clever use of the Blight. That said, having an alchemical super-weapon that would break every code of the Geneva convention, as well as raising the slain dead to life… Isn’t exactly ‘tactical mastery’ and more just using very OP and very questionable methods to win.

But to surmise - the Alliance had crippled the Horde at the Battle of Dazar’alor. It was a huge turn in the tide (pun intended) destroying most of the Golden Armada. And while we made them pay in blood, Mekkatorque and a few ships of their own… We absolutely came off worse. But! The war is only halfway through. Plenty more room for ups, downs and Sylvanas’ End Game master-plan payoff. I’ll wait until I see how that turns out before I start singing her praises.


#34

What? No retort? You cannot even bring yourself to admit you lied and got called out?


#35

Hold up !!! The Horde won Lordaeron. You can see this by the comments Saurfang or Baine makes before the ambush at the throne room. He says something like What is a victory worth where we have to pay with our honor. And by the way you are forgetting 4 things :

  1. The cannon in Bilgewater that is pointed towards Stormwind
  2. The civil war that the alliance will face soon
  3. It’s fking Sylvanas
    and 4. Without some bullsh1t superhero written character like Jaina the alliance would have lost their king and 3 of their racial leaders

#36

Baine makes no comment on their victory. Saurfang talks about Sylvanas’ plan to achieve victory, sacrificing te city to, presumably take out the Alliance army and leaders, which failed as Mekkatorque lead the army out of the city before Sylvanas could destroy it, and the Alliance leaders escaped. Blizzard stated at Blizzcon that they considered the battle a Horde loss. It is best viewed as tactically indecisive and a strategic Alliance victory, as the Horde lost their main base on Lordaeron.

The cannon that has never been used, and probably cannot reach Stormwind, seeing as Garrosh never used it for such.

What civil war?

That sounds way more impressing in your head I reckon.

Yeah, but the Alliance has a bullsh1t superhero hero character like Jaina. In fact, they have several of them like Malfurion and Tyrande. so I guess, by your own admission, their chances are pretty good.

I mean, I could just as easily argue that without her bullsh1t plot-armor, SYlvanas would have been tried and executed along with Garrosh and none of this would have ever happened, yet here we are.


#37

Well, the cannon may have not been able to reach it in the past, but since we have azerite weapons now it sure will reach stormwind. Do you really think that the Alliance is stable at the moment ? I think not since Greymane dosnt agree with anduins decisions anymore. And what about Tyrande ? The last time i’ve seen her she decided to go her own path and ignoring Anduins commands.
And to quote Saurfang at Lordaeron : “I had to see it for myself. Was this your plan all along? Is this how you archieve victory? This … honorless travesty.”

And by the way let’s not forget that there is such a tremendous amount of corruption in your “alliance”


#38

What do you base that on? So far, Azerite has not been shown to be particularily more powerful than every other magical mineral on Azeroth.

Consider also that the Bilgewater Cannon is placed in Azshara, homeland of the mineral Azsharite, which shares many properties with Azerite, yet has not granted the goblins the ability to shoot Stormwind.

Well yes, they are very stable. Genn is actually leading Anduin’s war campaign, as shown in Dazar’alor and Nazjatar.

Tyrande may have gone off on her own, but Anduin sent the player to aid her acheieve victory, which, according to Shaw, they obtain.

In addition, whatever friction their meeting caused, does not matter, considering that all the Alliance leaders barring the frozen Mekkatorque were present at the time Jaina presented Anduin with his new ship.

Compare this to the Horde, where several Horde leaders have flat out decided to fight against Sylvanas.

Actually, he said:
Is this how you meant to achieve victory? This… honorless travesty?

Examples?

Also, you did not answer my question regarding the civil war.


#39

Regarding the civil war :

Tyrande wanted the alliance to strike against the Horde in darkshore. Anduin says no and Tyrande obeys his order just to get her vengeance. Same goes for Genn. He did not follow Anduins command and acted on his own. When Anduin found out he basically did nothing and showed weak leadership. And since both Tyrande and Genn want revenge for Darnassus they will go seperate ways with Anduin because they won’t accept his leadership anymore.

And because you are wondering about the corruption in your faction : look at your race and then try to say with certainty that you are 100% free from any voidlords controll


#40

All of that is wrong. Tyrande is not Anduin’s subordinate. She requested aid in retaking Darkshore, he refused, she went on her own, with her own forces. They are fighting separately, not against each other. Anduin also accepted Genn’s choice to aid them, and he later sent the player do Darkshore to aid Tyrande, allowing her to become the Night Warrior.

Just because two Alliance leaders once had a strategic diagreement that ulimately worked out for everyone, does not mean they will have a civil war. What will they even fight for? Neither has anything to gain by attacking the other.

This applies to literally every faction.


#41

yes she is her subordinate since he is her king


#42

No, he is not. He is “High King” of the Alliance, a position Blizzard has explicitly clarified only gives one military control over whatever forces the Alliance nations wants him to and no political dominion over other nation-leaders.