Which horde leader will blizz kill off?

Lore Story
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High Elves was a small 1 City Kingdom that could not handle even a 1 tribe troll problem. Yes they lost 90% of their people, but that happened BEFORE the WoW ! ! !
When players first met this race in WoW, this race was always victories in any battle.

Was know as half ogre supper small tribe, that was exterminated by ogres BEFORE the WoW. In Legion half of that race joined the forces of the Light to fight grater evil. Others joined the our world…

Drainei lost their planet BEFORE the WoW, later this race rise, and found out that there are forces of the Light. They showed to the WOW as wise race, that managed to save their planed and to defeat their ancient enemy - The Burning Legion.

That race was added to the game as crazy engineers that have lost their main city BEFORE the WoW. But later they manage to retake half of their lands. To defeat their main enemies. And even to find a Legend Island with most smartest creatures in galaxy, mehagnomes, that joined with gnomregan.

Darkspear was one of the smallest tribe of the trolls. This tribe have lost their homeland BEFORE the WoW ! ! ! Later they managed to build another home city. Their leader was also Warchief of the Horde for 1,5 addons. And now their leader will become Demigod of the Azetorh.

Were added into the WoW as one of the ancient, wisest, strongest races. Since the beginning of the WoW, they were losing everywhere. When Horde were starting a war, Night Elves were always shown as stupid losers that lose everything. As punching-bags. That have happened for 2 times.
Their leaders like Fendral did not became a LOA or something. They just gone crazy and die in the raid.
One of their location Azhara, after goblins have Execute a DAMN ARMY of the Night Elves, was transformed into Horde Flag.
Others territories were taken by the Horde or were destroyed by something.
Night Elves lost was the first playable race in game, that was defeated totally. They lost all their cities, their army, their capital city, and almost all their civilians.

From a race that could be a separate faction, they went down to a size of the small allied race.
And all that humiliation have happened in WOW. All that that have happened in actual times to classic race. Fans had to suffer all the loses and humiliations IN REAL TIME.

Now half of their race leading by Humans cheer leader Shandrise lives in the streets of the Stormwind, growing pumpkins. Others try to live on the NEUTRAL Nordrassil where no cities presents (live on the grass). And their leader is about to be hit by villain bat.
And their first ever in the WoW history win in battle (for Darkshores) was not even shown in the game, and the state of the Ashenvale, and traitors undead Night Elves is unknown…

So don’t you dare to compare!

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I will say, having it happen in-game DOES paint it rather differently, but the same thing happened to the Worgen. Incidentally, that was ALSO Sylvanas. People talk like Greymane is a hateful warmonger for no reason, but his kingdom had pretty much the same thing happen to it, only Blizzard didn’t give nearly as much attention to that or to the aftermath.

But of course, Greymane then Sees Wisdom and Overcomes his Hatred at the end of a novel, and was never written as the frothing, incoherent thing the writers have given Tyrande’s face to. Clearly she needs to be Shown the Right Way by a Man’s Wisdom. Almost certainly Anduin. Maybe Baine. Same character, really.

The Orcs broke their own homeworld. Story of their species, really, they cause all their own problems. The Darkspear lost their leader, but they’re about to get a god in return - and their standard of living now probably isn’t worse than it was when we met them. The Tauren haven’t lost anything since Cairne, and even Garrosh sided with them over that.

And the Forsaken? They’ve been making this bed since Cata at the very latest, they can shut up and lie in it. They don’t get off by blaming the leader they all chose to follow - the same one who lost them their city as well, because they thought the Orcs were a sterling example, apparently.

Getting your donkey handed to you is apparently exclusive Alliance territory, with the ironic exception of the Blood Elves.

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Greymane isn’t taken over by a wrathful gods spirit, total false equivalence. Not sure where you coming from with this gender argument, trying to paint wow as some patriarchal stuff, when it’s one of the more gender inclusive games out there, but nice try.

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I am genuinely curious what you’re comparing it to.

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The gaming industry as a whole, see t. Every controversy when a female is portrayed to be the forefront of a series.

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I’m not sure what exactly you’re saying here, though. Like, in what way is WoW doing better on gender issues, and compared to what? Do you have examples?

To clarify, I wasn’t saying Warcraft doesn’t have female characters in leadership roles. They always have. Granted, it’s usually Elves, but less so lately. I’m saying that when a woman is justifiably enraged and distraught, they write her as behaving irrationally. Jaina’s anger over Theramore nearly got her turned into a raid boss and she repeatedly had to be held back by Varian, who was portrayed as the wiser, more mature one in that scenario.

As a single incident or even a single character, that wouldn’t be problematic, but this is a whole trend. As Tyrande now, as Jaina before her, as Sylvanas before her. By contrast, when Varian was shown as irrationally angry, it had no consequences for him or anyone else, and he got over it with nothing more than some father-son bonding. Genn Graymane, similarly, is portrayed sympathetically even when his actions and situation are about the same.

The issue isn’t whether they have women on screen, it’s how those women are portrayed compared to how men in identical circumstances are portrayed. There’s a very clear divide.

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Once again tyrande is consumed by bloody Elune, who is most likely a first one, it’s a total false equivalence. You’re ignoring context.

None of the examples you listed are indentical circumstances, you’re invalidating your own argument.

Talajnji, lost her father, lots of her people, wants vengeance but hasn’t been consumed by rage or with actual context you omitted, the power of a god.

Nearly all the allied race leaders are female, have suffered hard losses of their people and haven’t gone crazy.

The three examples you gave had no context. Tyrande doesn’t need explaining, Sylvanus has always been unhinged ever since she became a banshee, especially after she jumped of icc, as for Jaina, she went crazy once, but is now a figure head in the alliance.

But it’s always the male leaders who actually get killed or are actually turned into a raid boss and suffer actual consequences. We know nothing will come of tyrande being consumed by Elune, so please don’t try and lecture me about actual equality.

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Employing Wattsonian reasoning doesn’t deflect the Doylish issue here, especially when the reasoning isn’t sound. Tyrande isn’t possessed, she’s acting the same way she acted when she performed the ritual - the last time we saw her prior to becoming the Night Warrior. In-game it’s been pretty clear that she’s in control of her actions, not some distant deity, otherwise she wouldn’t be hunting down that deity to demand answers.

As for Jaina, maybe you weren’t around then, but ever since Mists and all the way up to BfA, she was not acting merely “angry.” She was sadistic, hateful, ruthless. Literally ordered the Purge of Dalaran on flimsy grounds. And this behavior continued every time we saw her for more than half a decade, never showing the slightest sign of improvement until BfA, so as welcome as the change of heart was, this was never portrayed as a temporary thing. Blizzard waved all their villain flags whenever she was on screen.

And Sylvanas, well, yes. That’s kind of the point. She’s been on a downward slope since TFT. Her behavior started off as murky and somewhat ruthless, then just kept getting worse until she became the cackling villain we have now. Again, she showed all the same signs that Tyrande is showing now.

This is not an isolated incident, it’s a pattern: Female leader suffers, wants revenge, becomes evil. It took six years of constantly calling for Blizzard not to villain bat Jaina before they changed course with her, and I don’t think we have that long now.

If you still don’t agree, then I doubt anything will change your mind, but this has gotten way off topic. We can agree to disagree and leave it at that.

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In game it’s not clear tyrande has control of her actions as it’s said to be growing in power on the ptr and shadowlands beta.

I completely disagree with your analysis that it’s a trend when you add context to the examples you have given.

Sylvanus isn’t a cackling villain lol, she knows completely what she is doing and nothing she is doing is anyway similar to tyrande and could be attributed to her gender.

Sylvanus hasn’t just lost a large population of undead and wants revenge, what sylvanus is doing spoilers whether or not the player base will like it is trying to free us.

Both sylvanus and the jailer are trying to effectively free the cosmos. In shadows rising :

“She has been the plaything of a self righteous cosmos long enough.The Jailer, too, understood what must be done”

What sylvanus did at teldrassil was evil but in the grand scheme of things it doesn’t matter to her as she is trying to break the system of death of whatever.

Some people believe she is waging a war on Elune and the first ones, who knows yet, we will find out.

The shadowlands is clearly not how it’s meant to naturally be, just look at the designs of the jailer and the arbiter. The jailer has a whole in his chest, the arbiter which is looking more and more like a first one creation has a blue orb floating around its chest. That clearly belongs to the jailer.

This is not the personality of a cackling villain of crazy women who lost something and wants revenge. This is someone who saw something at her death, the bigger picture, didn’t like it and is trying to fix it. With the way they are setting this story up, sylvanus and the jailer may not be the evil the player thinks they are.

Hence why I say the player base may not like what is about to happen in the shadowlands.

So with context 2/3 examples you gave have nothing which can be attributed to their gender. Jainas one could be argued. If only one person exhibited this, it’s not a trend, and it’s really disingenuous for you to try and paint wow like this.

I can easily do it by saying wow is sexist due to the “trend” of all the male leaders being killed off.

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50

Have you’ve really seen Echo Isles? It’s hardly a city it’s starting zone and mostly a training grounds. You can’t even set your hearthstone there Lol and the zone is in constant battle against the Naga you can’t phase it to a zone that is now tranquil. They got it because both gnomes and trolls didn’t even have unique starting zone unlike all other races and to this day they don’t have their own capital.
In Legion their only developed character was killed off with zero regard and the entire tribe was ignored for entire expansion. Imagine if nelves were ignored for entire BfA after that tree was burned. Imagine.

Imagine that after 14 years your rooster was limited to Shandris and few other characters from starting zone with 2 lines of decription. Imagine.

If you count Echo Isles as a massive Gain then why you’re not counting Hyjal and Val’sharah as massive gain? Especially when their size is much bigger and they have huge cultural importance.
But I guess that gets in the way of narrative that is focused on pitying on nelves and downgrading plight of others.

Nah you’re confusing it with trolls. They didn’t have any victory since Aquir Wars.
Get back inline.

Nelves did win few times at the very least, and they were present as important part in safeguarding the world. Trolls didn’t have it since Aquir Wars, and maybe Zul’Gurub raid depends on how you look at it.

No, he only became right hand of Firelord. And their actual leader became Avatar of God. Pff.

Horde logo is easier to shape than a friggin lion. The coastline already had smilar shape, the only thing that was change was Bilgewater harbor put there.
That zone was unused and was mostly takenover by nagas. I fail to see how is that shown as a loss?

Lol nope, They lost capital not all cities, they didn’t lost their army. And civilians were able to fill entire Stormwind and reach the Goldshire. They will recover.

After all this trouble they’re still in better position than Darkspears, let that sink in.

You’re acting as if no other race was humiliated in this game, but it would require for you to not focus on your precious nelves constantly and acknowledge that others had it rough as well.

I urge to read about Amani, Nelves aren’t even close to the amount of loss they experienced. Tyranda was not turned into Raid boss yet.
As for the playable race losing - again you have a counterpart in Forsaken, not only they lost capital but also the only developed leaders as well. You still have your precious Tyranda and Malfurion my love.

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51

Humiliation ehh…so What happened to the Tauren going from WC3 to WoW - Their original intro said they were generally peacefull in nature but they are not pacifists…what fid that translate too? They’re now a bunch of hippies, with a leader that tells them to take it on the chin…or else!

Unlike the Night Elves, their most renowned character and racial leader gets offed in a book barely anyone read, at the start of Cataclysm there wasn’t even a mention of that, untill enough people spoke up about it, that amounted to a short tekst by some npc and a small funeral.
He was literally shortchanged for his son - who was just placed there in Cairne’s place, with the exact same text, never even mentioning his father or any of events happened in that book.
Magatha was just gone, no mention of why?
No damage from the coupe, no mentions of the deaths or the Grimtotem or how a part of the Grimtotem actually helped liberate Thunder Bluff.
Taurajo questline - Baine gets cut out and his most character defining is then set in that book, in which he shrugs of the dead and calls it a “legitimate millitary target” - Now, you imagine if that had been Tyrande saying that about Astranaar or Auberdine! And I would be telling you to get over it, because she was right and very wise to say so and it all made perfect sense.

Now think back to the Tauren and Cairne from WC3 and now back to WoW, where Baine Bloodhoof, son of Cairne and High Chieftain of the Tauren sends parts of himself to Anduin Wrynn - leader of the faction that had Dwarves defiling his people’s holy sites and lands, genociding tribes, Humans building forts and a road through their lands, killing their people, desecrating their corpses. And he shrugs that off, Imagine if that had been Tyrande in his place and Night Elves instead of Tauren.

Now over to Legion, where we encounter the Highmountain Tauren, not only do they not even recognise your character as a fellow tauren, their whole storylines just breaks off when the Drogbar escape into the mountain. And Baine gets cut out there too.

But ofcourse…we shouldn’t dare compare that to the Night Elves, “the race that never lost any wars before WoW and was their own faction”…everything else is just not worth the light of day.

Add:

Look at the new customization options: Night Elves get scars, blind eyes and ripped ears…Tauren get…a little flower in their mane…lol

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52

Not to mention Orcs. Yes those terrible orcs that dared to attack nelves who not only lost once but twice HOME PLANET. Not just a friggin tree bu a PLANET!

In WoD almost all orcish clans were villain bat and most of their novelty was destroyed. But it’s ok narrative doesn’t want for us to feel for them they didn’t get a cinematic with tearful orc where in this tear there is a sad reflection of the lost home.

No, they’re brutish warriors, savages (like nelves) but we are not meant to have any sympathy for them but the purple tree dwellers we are meant to feel sorry.

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Had to interject there a second.

I think you guys have very valid complaints, especially Blunderhoof, just be careful not to fly off the rails!

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To be completely honest the customization is pretty meh for most races. Just look at humans, the entire focus of the customization is IRL humans, not WarCraft humans. Stormwind Lionhead/Lordaeron L/Dalaran Eye necklaces or Stromic warpaint? Nowhere to be seen.

I sort of hoped we could at least customize the voice of your character based on the kingdom you come from. Gilneas, Kul Tiras and obviously Stormwind are already in, could record something for Lordaeron and Stromgarde or even Dalaran (and if they feel wild even Alterac).

We don’t even get a wizard beard. Instead it’s all about IRL races, their skin tones and face shapes. That makes me sad.

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Agreed, I really hope the good stuff is yet to come.
I didn’t mean to imply everything was bad…allot of it is just sooo…generic.

It would indeed be awesome if Humans had some more customization in line with the seven kingdoms, similar to the orcs and their different clans- give them back some of their identity instead of having them be some big heap of generic Human /Orc

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Yeah, speaking of that I hope when they make human/orc heritage armor they’ll give it tints like they did for Mag’har.

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Don’t get me wrong, the Tauren do get shafted pretty reliably, but you’re comparing two very different things here. As much as the two can commiserate over their racial leaders being written poorly, the Tauren still have pretty much everything they had in vanilla. Mulgore is all but untouched, with only one Dwarven operation and some Quillboar in its history, and we don’t even know if those are still a thing.

Baine as an individual has had an arguably regrettable presence in the overarching narrative lately, but the Tauren mostly just get ignored. They come up when Blizzard wants someone to object to whatever awful thing the Horde is currently doing, and they rarely bother with that, but are otherwise sidelined. The only bone Blizz throws them is when some unrelated not-these-Tauren group shows up, because they don’t seem to understand why that isn’t the same thing.

Also worth noting, you’re wrong about Cairne’s death. It happened in-game, in a scenario where he challenged Garrosh to mak’gora (a purely Orcish tradition, because the Horde is all Orcs, really - again, Blizzard writing) and died of poison. Garrosh turned out to not want that, and it turned out that Magatha Grimtotem was staging a coup in Thunder Bluff at the same time, taking advantage of the sudden power vacuum, so we went to go kick her butt.

This scenario, like Wrathgate and many others, was removed from the game for reasons that still don’t make any sense to me. You have every right to be upset about that. But at the time it was happening, Cairne’s death was on screen and treated as a tragedy.

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Okay, I won’t get you wrong…however:

The comparison is perfectly viable: the original stance was “Blizzard’s hates the Night Elves” and no other race suffered loss and humiliation like they did - Which is flat out wrong.
The other stuff you mentioned, really doesn’t eleviate the problem, if anything it is part of the problem.

I’m not expecting you to admit it, but there you go, I don’t care about the state of Mulgore or even if Thunder Bluff got burned down to the ground, what I do care for, and I thought it was obvious, is how Tauren leadership is depicted and the Tauren as a whole.

Now, be a gent and show/link me that scenario about Cairne facing off with Garrosh, and how we subsequently go to liberate Thunder Bluff and “kick Magatha’s butt”, in game.
Because I played WoTLK, I played the patches in between and I played Cataclysm.
And I recall No scenario of the sort, only as I said, a few lines of npc text and the funeral after people pointed out that it wasn’t okay to see nothing in game about Cairne’s death.

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There was no such a scenario, otherwise it would be easily found on youtube.
There is only fan-made machinima.

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Cairnes death almost annoys me more than Voljins tbh.