Destro is so boring though
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Well sub design is utterly broken this expansion and it was broken most of legion too. End of legion sub was fun at least but seems these redesigns dont work in pvp or pve
It will persevere for another decade, look, just now we started talking about rogues in this post. Interesting topic, might as well join in, right? 
If they made some number changes to sub, I would even consider rerolling, since sub seems like it has many fun spells to use, and seems fun spec as a whole.
Ehm, have seen cbs with under a sec casttime which hitted for 140k. A deathcoil is basically enough to secure your burst (2 cbs in a row) with such a casttime.
And no, it wasnât last century, it was yesterday evening. Sure, he played with a mage who supported him quite a bit - anyways: a 173k cb crit (https://imgur.com/9Ha97t6) while tripple cc the enemy team isnât something to say âhit a littleâ.
Indeed, seems like the oneshot tactic of ele+destro havenât worked out this time - but worked out often enough (2.6+ mmr).
Donât get me wrong, Iâm not defending Ret Burst or Disc dmg in 2s, but they have done basically the same what Ele+Destro are doing. But facetanking Ret wings without any cc (well, he bubbled tho) or kiting, says everything about their tactic -> cb + earthshock = we win!. And they would have won right after the bubble btwâŚ
Damn, you are actually right. I completely forgot about Sub Rogue. X_X Blame Blizzard!
Ye try to kite as warlock, he even got thunderstorm on his pony after gate.
Also one shot tactic? Classes have So much defensives you simply canât oneshot people in 2s (if theyre not apes). If we win its cos we hard outplay the enemy not cos of lucky rng crit.
Also we faced them several times and trust me its almost unwinable, even if we force every deff cd in the game we just lose to disc Priest dmg.
Also you can most of the time ignore warlock dmg as double melee in 3s. Almost the only situation you need to be afraid is infernal and darksoul (which melee setups with dk and dh can completely ignore cos of darkness/amz.
You forced basically everything within 30 secs?! Like they did. Sure, there isnât much you can do when heâs already standing right in front of you with wings+bubble and you dropped already to 30% health - The question is: How comes he was able to bubble right in front of you and you were already down to 50% hp at this point? Why not shut down wings with hex/lasso/deathcoil/etc. at this time? Maybe he would have bubbled the cc their, but at least you had another 3-4 secs before he could even reach you, or am I wrong? 
Pretty sure 100k earthshocks + 150k cbs helps a lot. I guess if you can tune down someones hp within 3-4 globals, thatâs what most people would call a oneshot.
If you would had the same dps as sustain, do you think you would achieve anything? Your whole class/combo design is build around passively facetank and oneshot burst. What is the outplay potential behind it? 170k+ cbs? Or to combine this cast with a stun on the target and cc on the healer? 
Donât get me wrong: Iâm not saying you play bad or their comp need more skill or whatever - Iâm just saying that both comps (ret+disc and ele/destro) play around oneshot burst! Itâs more that the other destro I quoted call them a joke but think your comp isnâtâŚ
The whole joke about it is the class design to quadruple the dmg within burst senarios. This is true for Ret, Ele as well as Destro (and Firemage of course)! The bad thing about Destro is, that they have so many micro ccs within. Call me one player, who hasnât died so far due a deathcoil combined with 2 cbs within destro burst⌠Pretty sure everyoneâs been through something like this before.
P.S.: No flame tho or anything bad and deffo nothing personal (if you have this impression after reading) - Iâm still just annoyed by destros! 
Btw: forgot to answer your ingame mail last time.
Basically yes if we do some rmp cc setup and win cos we do that several times and force enemy cds one by one And in the end we win cos they have nothing left thats what i call outplay. If someone die to lock cds cos they trinketed somethig yolo or just dont play properly thats what i call choke. Also if you dont play double dps 2s but with healer/you play Spell cleave in 3s the win condition is usually to dampen people not to oneshot them (cos they almost never die to my burst, mby just wrong cd usage idk)
Also if they wanted to rly try hard we wouldnt force anything against them. The only Reason he used his buble Is that we faced each other several times and he knows im going to die during Wings + bubble and if i dont i end up at low hp and eventually die to Priest dmg or something.
I mean ye we prolly could do more, we had some more promising arenas against them than the one in video. This one was prolly first game where we didnt know what to expect since you dont face ret disc every day or last one where we knew we Lost by default no matter what so i was just triggered or something and didnt play properly (i mean outcome would be the same).
The point is you usually dampen people rather than oneshot by some 170k bolt which is rather rare from my experience.
Well, beside the fact that everyone flame RMX, DMD, etc., because they can still spam cc while most other classes dropped potential to stop cc -> so you deserve also some flames 
âŚ
Itâs also quite a while ago since I saw someone flopping 100:0 within a 2-3 sec stun vs RMX - even with Vendetta and Combustion up. Itâs quite normal for destro+ele tho that someone dies within a deathcoil I would bet⌠Thatâs a huge difference, wouldnât you agree?
You probably should go port VS ret, coil is probably not useful in this situation.
Sounds like warlocks are throwing around 173k chaos bolts all day long.
Can you show me at least one of those very casual, very laidback, user friendly 173k chaos bolts that the warlock hit twice within a coil in that cloud9 game? or 140k⌠or 100k+⌠Because i didnât see any of them.
The thing is, melee mobility needs to be pruned to hell, then CB nerf would follow. If melee can sit on a warlock for 38 minutes with little to no effort, if they can run away with little to no effort with jsut one button, then those are 120k+ cb are justified.
At the moment playing warlock is like playing a warrior vs a mage in vanilla where mage is the one playing the game while warrior can do nothing except taking half of the mageâs hp when mage do something stupid.
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Is your name whisperer? Anyways, I gave you the proof that cbs like that are possible - and from what Iâve heard, they arenât that rare.
So 50% HP pool with one cast you can get down to 1 sec with enough haste, is deffo nothing you should defend.
So no, Iâm not saying they are hitting all day long for that much, Iâm only saying they should never hit for that much!
Noone can, because they donât show the dmg numbers? Using that as an argument is truely âwhisperer-styleâ 
- Anyways, whenever you see someone dropping 1/3+ of his hp after a CB you know it landed for at least 120k.
âThe thing isâ: Nothing (!!!) not a single spell (!!!) not even ToD which has a 2 min cd and ticks for 8 seconds (enough time to prepare!!!) should hit for 50% of the hp in PvP. If it does, something goes terrible wrong - but here "is the real thing": except for CB I have seen nothing so far that hitted for that much, so âthe thing isâ nerf CB without useless try to defend broken âthingsâ!
Easy âthing to doâ!
Except for maybe DH, we all have classes we donât like to play against. Most melees hate to fight a destro lock for example due the amount of micro ccs and face tank abilities which donât require any skillâŚ!
Okay guys I did it. I read all 333 replies.
Level down:
-20 intelligence
-50 energy
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You tried to sell me 173k bolts as a very casual norm, and now you are angry because i didnât buy it. You still keep saying the same thing by repeating ââ%50 of hpââ⌠.etc. You can not show any of those bolts that takes % 50 in cloud9 game because there isnât any, not because they donât show the damage. If you are talking about 120k bolts that takes lots of build time, yes those bolts are justified.
but it is perfectly fine if all melee can stick to any non-mage caster like a glue all day long and lock them down for all eternity?
Why canât you be honest? Just say it; ââremove demon armor, dmg reduction from mastery, nerf bolts by %50, i want to isnta kill locks because it is funââ.
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Nope, I said they are possible and you tried to deny it. I donât care if you buy it or still keep living in your own biased world.
Because itâs 50% of the hp - maybe Iâm wrong but personally I think itâs spectacularly enough to mention it over and over again -> especially for a off CD spell you can get out within a second.
Maybe you are already used to as destro, which would be another counterproof for your pov!
You want me to watch any stupid boring game to find such a situation where a CB landed for that much?! Itâs basically like Iâm forwarding to 30% dampening and watch the last 1-3 minutes of a gameâŚ
If a lock can deal only 70% of the damage of a warrior while heâs locked down for all eternity, you know how hard his casts are hitting. I mean, if he only gets a cast out every 10 sec (like you are trying to sell) but still doing good dps, the cast must hit for a truck!
Iâm totally honest - you obviously just should play something less skill needed than destro if you think Iâm not - actually only dh remains in this case I guessâŚ
I want destro defense to be a bit more skill based - something wrong with that? Shadow is a good example for how a defense design should be imo.
And no, I donât want kill locks insta - but I want them to be able to mess up their defense and not be able to hit for 50% of the hp with a â1 secâ cast.
Anyways: No matter what one say about lock, there is always minimum one whoâs trying to deny how stupid designed this class is. Same for dh btw.
How Is shadow good example? Like low hp press dispersion if cced, fade if not cced, if you dont have any of that press trinket swap. Its actually almost same as destro if you think about that. Wall = dispersion, coil = fade, healthstone = swap. Pretty much same design just slightly different effects. + Priests also have vampiric embrance .
All his defense is based on cds. Bad timings result in a kill which he could have survived otherwise.
Sure, he lags vs high sustained, which means he is having hard times vs the current 2 hand heros with maximum passive dmg (or DH) - but that is another fail design of blizzard.
Is it? Destro is more like: I tank any dmg until I drop low.
- Option 1: Press coil and turn around the defense into offense mode - getting healed by the coil and the mastery after when I bump my 50-150k cb into my target.
- Option 2: GS (if itâs very needed)
- Option 3: Wall which is also aura mastery (result in dmg = selfheal too)
Wall=dispersion: Okay, fine.
But coil = fade? Fade doesnât heal him, fade interrupts if you deal dmg, fade can be wasted (for example using it into nothing or when heâs not even the target, misstimed (eating big dmg numbers), âŚ), but coil is always good. Maybe you lag on defense after, but a cc which also let you free cast is barely wasted - you also canât use it into nothing (no los, no coil) - only thing that could happen is to use it into some kind of immunity - but well, shouldnât happen to a 3k player, should it?!
HS = swap also seems very very weird to me. Anyways: Thatâs basically the defense of Shadow. He does have shield and maybe some offheal sometimes, but barely comparable with the passive heal of destro. The big difference here is: The shadow has to use them actively (means GCDs on purpose) while the destro is getting it for free (by doing dmg). Not to mention the very increased passive defense vs armor related dmg.
Sure, there are quite a lot melees nowadays which are bypassing armor (some only like 30% of their dmg, others completely (DH?!/Assa/âŚ)), but others are having hard times (Fury/WW/âŚ) - anyways, shadow has nothing like that, so each waste of a cooldown will result in death, while a destro still can passively survive it.
Correct me if Iâm wrong - of course with objective arguments, not the typical biased destro blabla Iâve usually see of whisperer or monsterette.
Basically i have nothing to add. Youre probably right i just wanted to point out shadow deff gameplay Is not that skilled either And have literealy Close to zero decision making.
Anyway today i qued 29 arenas at 2,6mmr and faced 3 spell cleaves (1mld and 2 fire ele), like 10 rmp and rest were melee cleaves. Warriors do actually same if not more selfheal as me (lock), other melees do actually more + they outdamage me hard. This Is actually so disgusting. I mean people here dont even play or are stucked at 15 hundos so its pointless to discuss anyway and idk what am i still doing here.
I dont want to defend anything or argue with anyone all i want is to point out things are different in arena and on these forums.
Not saying itâs super skilled, only saying you can mess it up - a destro basically canât. Isnât a big deal for skilled players, but a big difference for the avg/bad ones.
Wait, what? Oo Warrior has basically no selfheal - only with this thingy he can use after a kill. Exceptions are the tank trinkets that are currently used again. I tried one of them with my monk and yes, the heal is retarded. Canât imagine how unkillable one becomes if he has both⌠But to be fair: Thatâs kinda how the destro mastery selfheal is.
Well, maybe - but isnât it funny that there are so many destro glads/r1s these days one have never heard of before bfa? They obviously all got some skill out of a sudden, right?! 
But the worst part about it: most of them trying to sell destro as âbarely viableââŚ
Then tell me where I was wrong so far (again: with objective arguments). Where did I say something completely wrong about destro?
I assume because of the way itâs said that to you itâs not normal. Apologies if I am wrong, then. But in case Iâm right Iâd just like to say that itâs not the first time that I see people complain about the fact that melees have become too easy and too powerful because they are now many to bypass armor. Which is false. Somehow people believe that melee class means physical damage. Melee just means close range.
If you think about it Combat Rogues have always dealt pure physical damage and actually have more issues with armor now than in the past (they had Rupture, a bleed, up until Cata, they had a lot lf armor pen talents back in TLKâŚ), Assa always had bleed and poison (magic) damage (both bypassing armor then) with one physical CP builder, nothing new, Sub has always been mostly physical with good bleeds (now replaced with shadow damage but both ignore armor) and talents to bypass some armor, Warriors have always been mostly physical with some bleeds for arms (only they werenât entirely passive in the past), DKs have had a great deal of magical attacks since day one, ferals always had lots of bleeds and armor affected finishers and fillers (shred & bite), etc etc. Actually the only melee I think got buffed in that regard is ret as I donât think their attacks dealt as much holy damage in their first daysâŚ
But yeah, Iâm not sure why people are associating melee range to âmust be affected by armorâ when it was actually never like this, all specs in the game still behave close to the same way theyâve always behaved regarding armor. I donât see any spec that was designed to be stopped by armor and got that removed and is now buffed because of it. There might be one, Iâm tired so not thinking too much, but then it would be an exception.