if you play back in vanilla and classic you can see that most of the forsaken says that the alliance with the hord is fake and that they want to create plague to wipe all the living and scourge , it will make sense in lore that many forsaken should join her and the jailor in the maw as part of the jailor army that sound good in lore,
while the hord will keep minor loyal forsaken and reinforce the areas near the undercity with orcs and zandlari trolls
it not make sense that sylvness alone will join the jailor how you think she reach icecrown alone?
That’s one of my bigger problems as well. The way the Forsaken were portrayed, there was really no reason for Sylvanas to betray them. She could just have recruited them to make the world burn, and they would have cheered. But I guess the argument against that would be some secrecy-angle, because it was for some reason more important to keep Sylvanas’ master a secret than it was to use the available tools, or something like that…
But even if we were to buy that, it kinda fails in regards to the player character, whom the game stupidly allowed to side with Sylvanas. In her farewell cutscene she made it clear that she trusted the champion’s devotion to her, even if she stood against the Horde and for genocide. And the champion wasn’t just some no-name grunt, so even that one alone would have been a powerful asset. The game horribly failed to provide a reason why the players couldn’t join Sylvanas on #TeamJailer.
And let’s face it, none of the reasons for her doing this almost alone are story reasons. It’s all about making Sylvanas’ motivations some great mystery to obsess over. The Forsaken couldn’t join Sylvanas, because then the player could have learned her plans. And we can’t have that, you have to be adequately impressed by their great story twists.
The reason is that Sylvanas simply does not care about the forsaken. The only aid she wants from them, is for them to “donate” their souls to the maw.
I don’t agreed bro the jailor torture souls to be loyal to him , most of the forsaken already loyal to sylvness and will do whatever she ask
if you play back vanilla most of the forsaken want to kill everyone it’s the same as jailor aganda the lore say it many forsaken are the same as sylvness and nathanos. Only lillan voss never talk about killing everyone we get here 2 groups of forsken
remind me garrosh with the true hord
I understand why it might have come off as a surprise, because Sylvanas was basically a goddess to them. But otherwise, the whole “Forsaken joined the Horde out of an alliance of convenience with no trust and loyalty whatsoever” mantra… it has gotten old. It’s probably been obsolete for a while now. Their leader had been chosen as the Warchief, the entire Undercity population has been welcomed into Orgrimmar, they’ve been entrusted with a seat at the council despite the recent events… I’d say they’re just a regular Horde race now. The “Reckoning” cinematic kinda proved their allegiance. They can (and most likely will) keep a double Horde/Sylvanas legacy - I don’t see them fully turning their backs on her figure. But at the end of the day Sylvanas was only followed by her Val’kyr and a handful of Forsakens. Jeez even most Dark Rangers chose to stay in the Horde
Sylvans should have never left the Horde. This is clearley alliance bias. She was the best and I hope she returns to us after Shadowlands. Darky lady watch over us.
How does it feel if you irl were turned into a mind-controlled zombie, slaughtering people without mercy, and making deadly plagues for the use of total annihilation, and then restoring your freedom of mind, only to still be seen as a monster even by your family. Wouldn’t that make you angry at them? Your undeath is a torment you would like to extend to other living creatures so that they can understand what you experience.
That’s how I see the feelings of most undead during the classic era. The forsaken were rejected from the alliance, and they were even hunted, they had to make “allies” and that was their relationship with the horde, a relationship to survive the alliance aggression.
But! Over time, I can see some forsaken accepting their fate, and accepting the kinship extended to them by the other horde races. In Saurfang cinematic, you can clearly see the banner girl’s reaction as “Excuse me?” after Sylvanas said that the horde was nothing. Of course, some forsaken are still as they are, but many others have accepted, or rather “found” their place in the world, and in the horde. So no, if there were people who would join the Jailor, then they will be your typical power-hungry who are ready to sell their soul to literally every villain from the Lich King and the burning legion to the old gods and any otherworldly forces, and not the Forsaken.
It would take ages of selfless and largely unsuccessful attempts to fix the image the forsaken created for themselves with their own hands.
I totally saw all of the Classic and TBC filled with the alliance aggression, which greatly highlights the way this story part.
Sure, the devs wanted to show that allies are leaving Sylvanas. Regardless of what it means for the narrative, game overall, and the forsaken in-universe, as well as for the players.
Those took place after (and, ultimately, because) they were rejected by their faction and families, though. I think the whole point of the Zelling plot was to show a glimpse of what happened to raised Lordaeroni back when they tried to reconnect with their kin. Despite displaying clear sentience and the best intentions, Zelling got instantly rejected.
Nah, they definitely wanted to show that they were loyal to the Horde, more than that they were leaving Sylvanas’s side. They didn’t express any doubt about her up until she said “The Horde is nothing”.
Well, that may be true, may not be. While we’re told that the messengers never returned, there was never any investigation about “why”. The rest is a mystery. Maybe, maybe there is something shadier.
I think the point of this plot was to try to build up Voss. Except that IMO it utterly fails at that, but I am sure some people like the quest line.
Besides, the real deal breaker was that Thomas did not know how being undead messes up the personality and attacked his own family, hence the rejection.
To Be Forsaken Julia Zelling: I don’t know who you are, but my husband NEVER tried to hurt me or his children. We are leaving… do not follow us!
Which does not really fit the story of what the forsaken are, but I guess the current dev team does not care why people became interested in the forsaken to begin with. Or so it seems to me.
Although that’s possible indeed, I’d say chances are that’s basically what happened, considering things like the Scarlet Crusade and the fact that Light worshippers like the Draenei rejected their Broken kin because they couldn’t wield its powers.
It’s true and I had forgotten about that part. Then again, it happens as a reaction to his family’s initial rejection.
You’re right that this questline also aims at developing Voss.
It def doesn’t fit the Forsakens’ old theme, but as I said it has probably been a while since the tables have turned, and at this point of WoW they had/have many reasons to feel completely included in the Horde.
you can not use Vanilla as a sole reasoning lore wise it has been years since such events and during which the forsaken have been side by side with the Horde and others have joined the argent dawn/crusade ect hell to quote Garrosh “times change”
Also the jailer made the litch king who in turn made them he is partly to blame for their condition so why would they side with a man responsable for their current state?
That did not stop neither Sylvanas nor val’kyr, so why would that be a problem?
I mean, the whole things is a “WTH” up until this point. Extra pinch of nonsense would not make it worse IMO.
Besides, the connection the forsaken had with Sylvanas is something totally special as she gave them a reason to exist after they’ve been forces to do horrible things while being trapped in their own bodies. Whatever drops of sanity or reasoning to even be, it’s tied to Sylvanas. Was tied, up until the dev team decided they can tell their story “better”.
well Sylvanas has been poorly written as a “im doing this for you, i didnt have a choice” trope hell i imagine the upcoming book will explain her as likly seeing this as a garbage excuse to hand wave her actions as ncessary to ensure the survival of azeroth or some other crap.
Absolutely. Couldn’t have said this better. There’s no logic behind this plot. The Forsaken don’t give a cent about the Horde. The whole “The Horde is nothing” could have given them a good giggle… and that’s about it.
If you analyze Shadows Rising, you will see that they are shifting the Forsaken into the “protectors of the living” and creatures full of hope, love and rainbows. Any Forsaken player knows that’s not how it works, these aren’t traits that characterize them in any way.
The Forsaken worship Sylvanas and hold no allegiance to the living. They generally lack empathy and human emotions, with the exception of negative ones. There are some exceptions but those are scarce and do not represent them as a race.
The Forsaken should have joined Sylvanas in her quest, whatever that is. But like Wimbert says, you can’t have a player involved in this mystery box so here we are, rotting in Orgrimmar’s scorching sun, hunting down our own allies and Queen. Bleh.
Reading this I’m actually pretty happy the devs made the choice to give this development to the Forsakens. If they had been stuck in their original theme, aka “I’m barely even sentient, I despise my allies and I can only be loyal to my queen no matter what happens” it would have been boring as hell. What kind of narrative tension can you build up following such rule ? What is the point of a race that cannot be affected by the events of the game ? We lore folks spend our time discussing relationships between races and the possibilities they may imply. Well if you have something like Vanilla Forsakens, unable to grow a feeling of belonging (and subsequently unable to lose it), unable to grow a feeling of trust (and subsequently unable to feel betrayed), then it’s just pointless to have them integrated into the story. So yeah they 100% made the right call humanizing them a bit.
Plus IMHO it is an erroneous understanding of the nature of the Forsakens to state that they can only be loyal to Sylvanas. Their loyalty to Sylvanas isn’t the result of some sort of mind control, it is only due to the fact that she basically saved them by uniting them and giving them a purpose. Well guess what ? That’s kind of what the Horde has been doing/is doing too. If they perceive it that way, then it makes absolute sense that they would be loyal to the Horde as they are loyal to Sylvanas. They’re not zombies. Zombies are loyal their master because they are biologically altered and crafted to do so. Forsakens are loyal to Sylvanas out of, let’s say, thankfulness and devotion. And those hardly classify as “negative emotions”, yet their dedication to Sylvanas is the core of their identity - so I really, really struggle to see where being loyal to the Horde would be a betrayal of their inner nature.
TL;DR : for the Dark Lady and for the freaking Horde
It’s safe to say the Forsaken - Horde relationship has been based solely on them needing each other.
Undercity has been the Horde’s bastion in Eastern Kingdom. Yes, the Horde did protect them to some extent, but they also did a lot of damage.
Let’s not forget that absolutely nobody trusted them, or Sylvanas. Garrosh literally sent his dogs to guard them, watch every move and sent them on a suicide mission in Gilneas.
They do not trust the living, they do not enjoy their company and they definitely would not qualify as friendly folks.
Even though they have a mind of their own, the Forsaken don’t feel enough emotion to connect to a living person. And it’s safe to say the Horde really doesn’t like them much either.
You see, they did not have a great experience with the living and yes, that’s partly their fault.
Sylvanas has given them the freedom to be themselves, to thrive and form a society of their own. She made them strong. This is not just thankfulness, Sylvanas gave them a new purpose.
She, unlike the living, made them feel worthy even in undeath. She understands them, she is one of them, she always worked to make their kingdom stronger, to save their kind from extinction.
If the Forsaken perished, the Horde would not bat an eye for them.
I’m sorry that I’m a skeptic here, but there’s no way will I ever believe that the Forsaken and the Horde could have this close relationship based on loyalty and camaraderie. It’s just not them, sorry.
Indeed. Let’s not forget that they are essentially a playable version of the Scourge. They weren’t supposed to appeal to people looking for love and acceptance. They were supposed to appeal to people who liked the freedom to be as vicious as they want to be in the game, without being preached to by their own.
Now, the old conception of the Forsaken was a problem in itself. It was always very hard to explain why others would actually want to work wih them, and would spend ressources to help them. That’s why Blizzard has experimented with their identity quite a lot. But they haven’t really found something that looked like it would work long-term… and thus the Forsaken are threatened with losing most of their identity to the “brotherhood of the Horde” now.
The two main reasons why the Forsakens were accepted into the Horde were that the Taurens hoped they could cure them with shamanistic life energies, and that the Horde needed a strong presence in the EK. The first reason has been obsolete for quite a while now, and the second reason has been plagued. Yet they’re still in the Horde, and they’re still given the opportunity to weight on decision making on the same terms as the other races through their seat in the Council. That brings me to think that there has been a major shift in their place within the faction
Something people don’t point out enough on this matter in my opinion, is how in Vol’jin’s death cinematic, the Horde seemingly had no problem with having an undead for warchief, with the population of Orgrimmar cheering and showing support for Sylvanas.
That and it’s pretty set now that they get along just fine with BElves and, more surprisingly, Trolls
Garrosh was Garrosh. This freaking genius literally brought racism into a faction pretty much defined by its multiraciality. He admittedly despised anyone who wasn’t an orc - and adding to that was his Mag’har heritage, which probably gave him an additional reason to distrust anything involved with dark magics.
Many quests brought me to think the exact opposite. From what we witnessed the Forsakens are fully able to feel things such as decent loyalty towards the Horde, decent (though twisted) sympathy towards someone not of their kind… I couldn’t name one quest in particular really, it’s just a general impression, though I can think of Kiryn and Riko in MoP, for example.
As I said, we know for sure that Forsakens are able to experience trust and loyalty, as they have expressed those towards Sylvanas, with no mind control involved. Sounds only normal to me that they would develop similar (though maybe less strong) feelings about the Horde, after having fought to their side for many years and against many foes.
There are plenty of ways to leave boring and systematic stereotypes behind without losing the races’ identities. The Forsakens can stop being the 100% disinterested, nihilistic Scourge leftovers they initially were without becoming peace-loving Taurens. And I really, really really hope Goblins will get the same treatment one day. Being greedy and craving for technology and exploiting resources is fine, if they can also be something else at the same time. Right now it is impossible to connect with the Bilgewater cartel on an emotional level from the Horde perspective. I know goblins’ value (and lore) is essentially of comic nature but they could be so much more than just that
