Many people seems to be happy about the idea of having heroic dungeons released on a pre nerf state. I will explain why this idea seem like a good one, but is in fact not so great after some consideration.
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The attunements are account-wide. This means the ability to hop in and list yourself in heroics with a fresh undergeared toon will be a reality. This will be a pain for people willing to optimize their characters and play the way the expansion was designed to (get to 70, get to heroics & grind them, attune, get to raids).
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Having extra difficulty and removing the requirements for heroics can only lead to extra verification steps when inviting people while forming groups, having to verify gear on 3rd party armories to not group undergeared people.
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It will also not bring any challenge to the people asking for some PvE difficulty, as heroics are not content that is interesting the majority of the PvE playerbase. It will be annoying for everyone and bring a little amount of fun to people who didn’t event ask for it in the first place. Even in heroic mode, the mecanics are not incredible and interesting enough.
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People will dodge heroics to go straight to easy Karazhan as soon as they can
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Having PvE “difficulty” focused on dungeons mean you will have to face “difficulty” with people you don’t know, while having zero “difficulty” fun in raids you do with your guildmates. This makes no sense for the people asking for a bit of PvE challenge, and proves the pre nerf heroics are not a solution for those people
The arguments of people asking to release the raids post nerf are wrong and misleading.
Most of the people asking for pos tnerf content have common arguments such as: “the majority of players are not tryharders, and we don’t want to sacrifice a lot of time because of the pre nerf difficulty, farming consumables and optimisation to the top level in order to kill the bosses”.
I think this is misleading for simple reasons:
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the majority of PvE enjoyers are not in favor of post nerf and really easy content, they are in favor of original content and mecanics just like they had in TBC classic. Proof is the amount of guilds asking for this, and the amount of reactions on the forums going in this direction.
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the raids content at any phase of the game require at least an hour to be completed by an average guild (1h for chill Gruul Mag, more for KZ, 1h for SSC is a good pace most guilds will not have), meaning any player interested in PvE knows he has to dedicate at least a few hours to do so. Most of the PvE guilds raid 2 days a week when content is released, 1 when they manage to get the pace to clear in 1 day. Having pre nerf content will not require much more time, and having post nerf content will not change the fact that you will have to either play for 2-4 hours (depending on phase) to clear all raids in a night, or X hours over 2 days if you don’t. Don’t lie by saying it changes anything since most guilds play at night around 7-9pm, you dedicate your evening to your gaming session anyways. And if you are not playing PvE 1-2 days a week in the evening, you are obviously a minority.
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for most of the decent guilds lets say, the same amount of requirements are asked from a player, for pre and post nerf. You still need your consumables, and enough to cover the raid. You might need a few more potions or wipe a bit more when facing a higher difficulty but I will detail why this is not that true in the next dot, and it’s not a night and day difference anyways. Having post nerf difficulty does’t turn the game into a 50h/week grind. It doesn’t either double the amount of farming you have to do to prepare for raids, this argument is vastly exagerated and many consumables effects persist upon death, its only a bit more food buffs, and having to actually use potions like the RPG/DnD style game was designed as.
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the mecanics of the game, even in a post nerf state, are 20yo mecanics. Most tactics are the same as you could find in vanilla with only a few ones involving every player to do their part. The only difference in TBC is that the mecanics are punitive if failed.
Asking for even simpler mecanics, with bosses like Gruul not punishing player stacking by heavy damage, or players not having a varied composition with a warlock to control the hard hitting adds on Aran instead of melting them is just asking for a removal of any difficulty and sense of accomplishement in a fight. If you want to kill end raid bosses like Kael’Thas just by spamming a few buttons while watching youtube, maybe this game is not for you afterall ? And again, the mecanics are not hard, avoid an aoe, kick a spell, click a cube, get to a given predicted position are 90% of the P1 mecanics if not entire expansion.
Those actions still need to be executed in a post nerf environment, the only difference you are asking for is the ability to fail at them and still be able to kill and loot by simply overheal the mecanics, or have enough dps that you can 20-man a boss having -40% of its original HP
So what could be done to please most people regarding the PvE content ?
For heroics : release in a post nerf state, no one cares much about it except purists, most people see them as a required grind.
For raids : release in a pre nerf state, at least for 3 weeks for people willing to clear with a little more challenge, then nerf for the other ones OR enable a heroic difficulty system just like heroics have, allowing to play pre nerf state and mecanics (no extra loot needed, people will do it to enjoy original content)
Few days ago while the Heroics on PTR were in their post-nerf state we wiped four times on Murmur in Shadow Lab and people could not understand why they cannot kill Murmur in T4 bis gear. If you fail in Heroics, it is never a question of gear. Moreover, there are no special gear requirements for Heroics, you shall try to play the right way like the majority did it in TBC 2007 and TBCC 2021. One must be insane to verify gear on 3rd party armories to group people for Heroics.
Do not call other players purists only because you fail in pre-nerf Heroics, you will fail in post-nerf Heroics as well. You are part of a small minority playing only for gear. Persons like you asked Blizzard to delete Heroics from the game entirely.
Do not decide for the majority that pre-nerf Heroics are not interesting content. Only a small minority like you will dodge Heroics and that is good, playing with gear focused people was never fun. Persons like you see the reasons of fails always in gear of other players and never in their own abilities and skills.
First community asked for account wide attunements. Now there are voices to release Heroics in post-nerf state or to delete them entirely. What is the next step?
TBC Heroics in their pre-nerf state like they were originally released in TBC 2007 are iconic and engaging without “gatekeeping” the uber casuals, please don’t take away this experience.
Maybe that is why it won’t be cool to play with mentally challenged people in greens and obviously dodging people thinking there is no need to have minimal gear to run heroics.
Its not about failing or not, post or pre nerf is not the reason for people wiping in heroics as you said, but if you add the removal of the obviously minimal gear needed for heroics then good luck enjoying playing with randoms.
No one asked for pre nerf heroics, people don’t care about it, they are pointless to run, only that point was stated in my post.
I never talked about being gear focused on not, please only reply if you have something constructive to say instead of personal conclusions about someone you have no clue about.
You try to speak for the whole majority, that is not right.
Looking on discussons in the US forum Blizzard seems to release all T4 raids in their post-nerf version. Getting the pre-nerf Heroics will be a win for TBC veterans and new players as well.
Trading one part of content in post-nerf for the other part of content in pre-nerf is just not the right approach. The TBC veterans community shall try to get the whole phase 1 content in pre-nerf version if possible.
I don’t, I am just stating facts that the majority of players are asking for pre nerf raids.
Some examples of proofs are the fact that no one asked for post nerfed content in the last months while everyone was expecting TBC anniv to come out like TBCC did. The only posts you find about this are casual people asking for the initial post nerf anouncement to be maintained while giving misleading and false arguments.
No one asked for pre nerf heroics aswell.
You talk about TBC veterans but it makes no sense, the vast majority of players are veterans and very few people are “new players” especially after the initial TBCC in 2021. Proof is the size of the servers on anniversary being way smaller than what we had for TBCC. Only people passionnate about the game are still playing it, with maybe 5% returning after a 20y break.
The interesting content of this expansion is not heroic dungeons at all, it’s iconic fights especially on T5/T6 and SWP. Even new players would be willing to experience those iconic fights over a pre nerfed heroic content. The heroics no matter post or pre nerf will turn in an even more cookie clicker game by the time you hit phase 2 anyways.
Veterans don’t care about heroics, if they can choose they will ask for pre nerfed heroics aswell, but not at the cost of ruined iconic fights such as Vashj or KT. I strongly believe people a bit more casual, coming back to the game, would like to appreciate the challenge they had back in the days. Those people can wait for next phase to release and finish their progression on nerfed bosses like they used to do in TBCC, and they will be justt fine with that because they are casual players.
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Once again, you try to sacrifice the one part of content for the other part of content you prefer, that is not the right approach.
In your own words, noone asked for post-nerf heroic dungeons. But for the post-nerf raids people voted while TBCC 2021 by canceling their subscriptions. That is a known fact and only that can explain Blizzard’s approach for TBCA.
You don’t have the choice between pre-nerf heroics / post-nerf raids and post-nerf heroics / pre-nerf raids. The decision seems to have been done, all T4 raids will be released in their post-nerf version. The heroic dungeons are the only part of content Blizzard could release in pre-nerf version. We take it and thank Blizzard for that. It is better than nothing!
By pushing your agenda you will not get what you want. On the other hand, seeing how you and other persons like you show no interest in original heroic dungeons, Blizzard will release the whole phase 1 in post-nerf version. So please, stop doing that!
I am not trying to sacrifice anything, this is a discussion about what the community wants, I don’t understandwhy you feel to offended and take things personal.
People didn’t “vote” in TBCC by cancelling subs because of a content being too hard, the pseudo fact you are quoting is irrelevant and there is not link with the pre nerf state, I even bet if it happened, it was rather linked to the fact the expansion can be a trap for people inverting too much and getting burned down by the initial grind.
You say blizzard has no time to implement things or that you don’t have a choice, but you don’t know anything about that and is sounds wrong: they are willing to dig into something they didn’t release in TBCC and make a new patch with nerfed raids + pre nerf heroics. The reason Blizzard initially pushed for post nerf is only because they can apply the last patch and get rid of extra progression patches, if you think there is an other reason you must be naive…
Saying “it’s btter than nothing” is so wrong in my opinion, we have an opportunity to speak about what we want, let us do it. I don’ know why you seem so afraid about speaking up and sound so beaten you are willing to be quiet and praise whatever blizzard will give you. If this is you mentality I don’t really understand why you are writing here since you accepted the fact that your opinion is irrelevant.
We do have the choice between another TBCC or this pre nerf heroic on a SWP patch and the community is expressing its disappointment around later decisions, its not pushing an agenda or anything, again stop taking things personnal or try to individualise it.
And yes sorry but as explained, pre nerfed heroic will be an extra useless pain for anyone interested in PvE… The expansion was designed so heroics are a step towards raids and not the way around with piss easy raids having to help you carry ungeared people in pre nerfed heroics.
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Disagree on everything post nerf. Literally no one asked for that . This decision was made by some woke DEI hire that has zero clue what they are doing. If you played at PTR first weeks you understand exactly what i’m talking about. Also you can take into account what they are proposing now as a “solution”
Who asked for solutions? Who asked for nerfs?
Just do the same thing you did in 2020+ and you will be good. You wont get higher profits than you did last time. Instead you decided piss off TBC fan base.
You still have time to reconsider your approach and avoid disaster. Do not break what is working.
I agree, the “solutions” they provide are solutions for non-existing problems.
Changes like dual spec, raid wide lusts and account shared attunements are fine.
Btw we don’t hear any complainers against the fact that bloodlusts/heroïsm are not stackable anymore, even though it nerfs the raid dps and makes the content “harder”.
Any thoughts on this ? 