Do someone at blizzard have a little personal campaign against DK class btw?Lately started to see more and more weird or even idiotic things about the Dk changes.
They give us something we ask for years and when we finally get it they did everything to make the experience with it as unpleasant as possible. Im sure anyone who seen the changes can say some example of this “weird” moves by blizzard.
Why do they give us the 2h back if they going to nerf the obliterate dmg and make it not just weak but simply unusable?!
Why they can’t give us the gargoyle as a baseline spell what everyone wanted but instead they are combining the ghoul+DT who would even think thats a good idea?!
Why do they make the most dk-ish covenant the worst(necro) and the most dk unfriendly one into our BiS(nightfae)?!
I played some of the other classes too as alts(or even as a main thanks to blizz…) and never encountered with such things. So Im kinda curious what others think about it.
i wouldnt really call this sudden…
throughout the history of Frost DK 2handed Gameplay was never competitive with DW it simply wasnt, It was obvious blizzard from the start wanted Frost to be DW and unholy to 2handed. they nerf other aspects of the classes and ensured their DPS was far below FDW and U2H.
they’ve always had a Campaign against 2handed Frost, half the reason they removed it was simply because it was never usuable xD. I’ve from the moment they announced it coming back, immediately assumed it’ll get nerfed everytime it gets near DW
well remmeber Druids BiS is venthyr Instead of Night fae also… this seems to be a thing throughout im not realistically sure whjy.
tbh, every class has moments they are hated 
Shamans have released unfinished for 2 expansions, legion launched Warlocks unfinished. Druids seem to be hated this expansion also espically ther DPS Speccs xD
i gotta have to disagree there in their goal in frost being strictly DW focused ever since wrath, i played beta back then, 2 hand frost and blood mainly and while it is true that Frost did have the nerves of cold steel in it’s early talent tree the real keystone to make frost DW was not introduced until some patches later in the expansion, Threat of Thassarian. two handed was also widely used by many, and it did not perform so bad compared to normal dual wield but thing is some theorycrafters created a rather unique build of An Unholy talent that increased your spell damage co efficients from unholy and they went DW and spammed howling blast, im not sure if this was before or after the introduction of Threat Of Thassarian but still it’s an interesting detail.
Then of course after mid wrath DW was given more and more focus and was the “preffereed” build due to how it performed and all that, i didnt care about the war between 2 hand and DW, as i enjoyed the spec anyway, we hit things with vicious weapon strikes and augment it with dark frost magic, big numbers and chunky hits that commanded respect for us, what i am NOT okay with is the abomination called breath of sindragosa, no one wanted it to be restricted to frost only after warlords an nowadays it’s supposedly the center ability of our entrie class. breathing fluffy ice, along with another dragon breathing more fluffy ice on a long cooldown. It’s a usurper of our whole destiny and i will forever hate it.
I am also very skeptical to the argument that they had to nerf 2 hand because they have a DW favoritism. if they nerf us its because they dont like the entire class, someone has a vendetta, and with the dismissal of class design teams into one BIG class design team that handles all the classes the favoritism is OF COURSE going to get worse, its maddening how stupid this all is, Rogue mage warlock DH and the other blessed classes have no idea how good they have it compared to our tortured existance through the ages
It was a long term bias tho, to begin with DKs in wraith had tons of things they could do, even tank in frost specc with blood stance on.
The problem was by cata Mop and WoD it was sooo bias continuously against 2handed frost. And by WoD it was almost below every class.
And of course it’s then it’s outright removal.
I felt like the only reason we saw this was for hype, not because they realistically intended for this to compete with DW.
DKs were super versatile back in their launch era, sadly blizzard butchered alot of that. I wish they’d just get 2handed competitive it was really fun. However I just has no faith 
I agree with removing this class from the game. But i think it is not about DW or 2H. Death Kight is completely unplayable. They have to remove it from the game or a complete rework must be done.
I thought this nerfs were mainly affecting 2handed frost?
Atleast it’s what alot are saying?
they are, unholy will get more nerfs because it deals too much dmg in dungs and blood is just the top contender for both raids and m+ along side with monk
he was just hyperboling because of frost, both unh and blood look good
Oh I ment compared to DW frost. How does DW frost contend comparitively.
after the pilar nerf? dont really know, guess breath will be the go to spec for DW as it suits it better with all the perks of double runeforge and more RP generation.
olbiteration build just lost at least 2 free KMs from the pillar duration nerf which is a big dmg redution for the talent.
the increased CD on pillar also makes icecap talent way more undesirable
only breath is not really directly affected by the pilar nerf
Not only was BoS untouched and made more valuable with these unjustified nerfs, it also is the only last tier talent that synergize really well with Hypothermic Presence, making it even more valuable with this new talent.
I’m sorry but if blizz are so intent on having us only play BoS they might as well remove the other two?
On the DW vs 2H debate, DW has always been the more universal and better performing playstyle compared to 2H. However 2H offer more of that “fun” gameplay and those really awesome crits, while DW was the steady eddy dps.
In all fairness BoS gets hit by the PoF nerf too.
The obliterate nerf hit dw frost too because it was a flat ability dmg nerf, and I talked about the DK CLASS not about 2h or DW frost I just didn’t talked about blood because I never play that spec as I hate tanking. The fact that most frost dk player hate the breath build but still blizzard pushing that is still weird too… Or why do they give us the 2h option if they will make it useless? Why do they nerf it to the point where it not just simply bad but basically unenjoyable? Im sure blizz spent a lot of time giving us these things and now they nerfing them/ruining it which makes no sense especially because they werent that strong. Why do paladins, rogs, mages always have to be strong but DKs should be happy if they even reach the decent category?
I dont want it to be true but everything points to it, someone has a grudge in the class design team because i doubt anyone could be this dumb with innocence…and also ever since they did away with the class design teams and consolidated it all into one big general class design blob for all classes the bias has been blatant
the same reason u could still play 2handed in WOD when it was litterally beneath DW Frost and every other specc in the game…
It was Suboptimal for Most of its Lifespan. it was Fun Yes. but people keep acting like 2handed frost was a absolute Monster Back in WoD and places and it just 100% Was defintly not.
paladins? HUH? lol.
i doubt it took em long to realistically do it… and the reason: Hype… they knew it would sell ALOT of people on the expansion to bring these sorts of things back.
the thing is blizzard has NEVER wanted to deal with balancing These things. thats why it was Left to rot effectively through most of its life span and then outright removed.
its just the absolute screeching for its return across the forums that realistically broughti it back.
the lead Devs own main Class is one of the worst performing speccs in the expansion :P. i dont thgink this is a Bias at all lmfao.
the problem it comes down to is Simple: its the same for void form, its the same for Holy power, its the same for BoS.
Alot of people BEFORE the huge legion revamps kicked in played this classes when they played VERY different. Now the issue is back in Cata blizzard tried to Pull away from this idea of strengths and weaknesses between speccs and More and Simply try and balance all of them.
Cata brought things like Frosts elemental and More and this is when u saw litterally EVERY mage go frost in PvE enviroments which wasnt rly the done thing through TBC or WoTLK.
Legion hit and blizzard basically stated “cant balance 36 speccs in all enviroments sorry” and they released reworks and revamps to all the classes and Pushed them out very different to before. Now some peoples long term mains are on mechanics some players Dont want.
BoS is Liked by some DKs. thats factual ur right the vocal Players Dont but its Proven in human behaviour. players happy with the game Dont go on forums… you go to forums when ur unhappy with something which means the forums by BIAS will be full of DKs that dont like BoS.
but this impacts Long term mains of these classes, Now Most just simply reroll, others Stick it out. its Not because BoS is bad. its simply because its been launched on a specc that didnt have it… if BOS was on a Brand new class people would be fine with it because it’d only be the players who WANT to reroll to the class that’d be using it.
Issue is, they tried to fix a problem Old WOW used to have, in efforts failed at doing exactly that. but now the playerbase want 36 viable speccs in the game. which blizzard Proved they couldnt do and now simply Not doing it… which means that Demand is not being attended to which will irritate players.
i think FDK will prolly see buffs, i just dont think they’ll be the buffs the DKs who are unhappy with the current design will want 
I stand with my very inflammatory notion that BoS needs to die for this class to even be remotely near our fantasy, our fun, and our feeling of enjoyment, and regarding the Bias you have to be mad to think that there exist none in the class design team, regarding the “dev main class” do you speak about shaman? if so thats a valid point but still. there are always the core favorites that mostly dont have bad patches. mage lock rogue war generally. another detail is that they might not be as fun to play sure as you mentioned but they can do the damage they are meant for but not just in the most enjoyable way. this points to stupidtity and people that dont play the classes they design Iin my opinion
yes but they are the same core favorites from the Old blizzard team also which is what im stating.
but i wouldnt say these classes are all that bias based Lemme go into this abit.
Mages are Overpowered Yeah, but u think arcane mage Lovers were treated well?..
Rogues again overpowered Yeah but Do Assassination Rogues Look loved in SL?
Warlocks again overpowered Yeah but do Demo Warlocks look loved in SL or any expansion after Legions launch
Lets by no means Escape here, Unholy is doing a TON OF DPS, its standing as one of the strongest M+ Options in SL… Blood is looking to be top of the pack for tanking. DKs arent in bad shape. Frost is simply not moving in the direction u want from it.
but these other speccs u proclaim bias towards… Suffer that SAME Problem
Demo Lock got robbed and replaced its on a Design thats hated by most vocal warlocks. anbd Doesnt perform well at all.
Assassination is Flopping in terms of Damage next expansion… even outclassed by Outlaw in a ST Fight.
Arcane Mage while is finally seeing love in SL… has Litterally sucked since WoD. it took 6 years for Arcane Mages to lead their class again after the fanboyisms for Frost and fire these past expansions.
Thats what bothers me you see, if Unholy is a blatant problem, why did it recieve less crippling nerfs than frost overall? a spec that was already middle of the pack if you are to be optimistic, I’m tired of this Bullcrap, so many years of playing this class, being semi ontop but middle/low most of the time, and when we might finally have something that will make us feared again, and that will struck awe in how we can perform in people again that is not allowed. no. bad dog, away from the table… while 6+ other dogs not only get to recieve the food from the table, but they can even crap and dance on it and the masters smile and allow it. but if we even whine for scraps we get a kick in our abdomen and lectured in not going near the food table again until you have manners.
It’s maddening, ever since legion this wild ride of targeted abuse has continued. we are currently the class with the most stealth PvP nerfs of any other class i can say with somewhat precision, our “preffered” playstyle (BoS) Only works against playerpet’s that attack us and stand still, and even then its damage is also reduced in PvP. our deathstrike is a joke, the changes and nerfs through legion and now BfA for that single ability is also a joke, It’s a supposed powerful spec with very little options and tricks up it’s sleeve… and while SL seems to give some more things to us we are still a very stripped and overly nerfed class in PvP… and that kinda spills into PvE aswell… or the other way around if that is to argue. They say this is good. Obliteration over performed. we need balance, listen to the people with authority that knows things blablabla… so… the blatant overperforming of boS for 5+ years and the complete dumpser tier of Icecap and obliterations was not a problem then? Why do they give BoS such a high priory to be defended at all costs. why do so many people also fail to see that they chase a slave mentality that " we need to play ball or damag was dangerous, the soulbinds caused us to nearly one shot players thats not nice" meanwhile a paladin thanos snaps people in 2 globals alongside many other classes that just makes sweet love to the dps meters but our middling performance and now diminshed burst window is somehow a problem and we need to prostrate ourselves?!.. i dont get how they think, its maddening,…Being middle of the pack is goodi wont argue that but justifying these changes with the arguments the so called “people with authority” is bull. pure bull. AGAIN boS haunts everything about this once impressive and fun class, i was close to re rolling or even quit the game in BfA after being strangely optimistic in legion… but now even when we got our supposed focus on our weapons back its “nah. BoS best” 
You still didn’t answered any of my question just reacted to some of the not interesting part like the paladin example. I said paladin because that class is always viable I cant say an expansion were any paladin spec would be so bad that they pick anything over you for m+ or raid or pvp but its not important.
I do think it have taken some time to give us these changes especially implementing back old things into a new game and thats why it makes no sense to brainlessly ruin them. I mean who in their right mind think that the Obliterate should hit 580… while a paladins templars verdict hit over 16k on 30k hp players and I will not even start to talk about mages and locks. And even at lvl60 it doesn’t seem anything better its hitting around 5-6% of the enemy players hp while it cost us 2 runes out of the 6.
Making us hyped about something just to get our money which will be refunded instantly isnt a viable strategy not even for actiblizzard.
actually i did, and no Ret has been considered bad multiple times.at the start of legion ret was in huge problems… it got buffed later down the line which made it more viable.
but its the LEAST represented class in PvP and even savix is quitting that class due to its current conditon and what its been since the start of legion.
these files already existed. they just reput what they removed back in? this didnt take a revamp… this was already built. the spells in their orginal formsupported 2handed gameplay. there was no reshuffle or design here… it was a Drag and drop back into the game.
at the time. they werent intending there to be a refund period. the refund period happened because of the Delay, something that didnt exist when they talked 2handed DKs
on the orginal gameplay.
anyone with heroic or higher couldnt refund due to usuage of Game time and potientally the boost
and alot wouldnt of known til the release and this would be too late
they overtuned their OWN refund polciies to give everyone the option to refund due to the delay.
and Savix has already called it, they’ll make rets DPS OP til launch and the nnerf it once its too late for them to demand Class changes, they’re just throwing wool over peoples eyes withthose changes.
Ret has been bad Since Legion, 100%
Fin a PvEr in preachs guild is also reconsidering playing Ret due to how bad they are in Raids.
Stop playing it out as if Rets good? they’re getting nerfed and they are Terrible xDD they are Litterally the Least represented class i nthe damn game xD far below DKs xD
Espically when DK has 2 VERY strong speccs… 1 Specc doesnt Mean the entire class is Bad.
the issue is, we know behind the scenes Nerfs and buffs are done to how blizzard Want us to play our characters.
For example WoD in Demo locks. they nerfed Demo into unplayability, and litterally then honestly told us “We dont want u to play demo” they know what they’re doing, its not a Misguided nerf
Blizzard Want Frosts top performance to lay in BoS. i get what your saying on BoS as a Mechanic not fundamentally working in PvP and you seem to beleive That should Hault this entirely.
but heres the thing
Legion boomkin existed… where full moon was Basically entirely dodgable and fundamentally broke the classes Astral gains.
new Demo is stgill with us and completely fundamentally broken in PvP…
Enhancement Still lacks the survivability to be competitive in PvP…
Frost isnt Alone on this… WoW has Always designed classes from a PvE point of view and Left them to be pulled together by the pvp community to function in PvE.
The Last mechanics they had in the game which was PvP Design and were lackluster in PvE were Shatter and Positionals… and they dumped both of them…
this games seen hundreds of Mechanics which just will not work in a PvP enviroment… theres a Reason to over half the arena representation is made up of 3 Speccs thats not a Justification to anyones behaviour… thats just facts currently.
as I say i think they’re moving Damage arouynd not actually nerfing, theres no way they’re leaving Classes as they are espically with the quantity that now do less then tank DPS… Im unsure why they’re swinging heavy with huge nerfs.
preach said somethingh on the fact that currently moving damage around classes is really hard currently due to how many systems have to be tweaked before u can just tune something up…
but i get a Nightmare of BoS taking some form of Flat Buff at some point xD like im legit Surpised it wasnt baselined.
my problem with breath is not the idea it self. my problem is how impacting it is facing mechanics.
during nighthold frost breath as an absolute beast with 45sec to 1min breaths, arriving at Tomb of sargeras and without nerfs frost crumbled because all bosses had mechanics or random targets that would stop u from reaching breath potential and therefore frost “died” completely in that tier, only returning for argus pacth with the, actualy enjoyable, obliteration build.
this limitation makes breath also no suitable for pvp as its easily countered or made useless. thus obliteration was the saving grace (and icecap with whelps)
even tho my 2 main specs are doing really good in beta, i have simpathized with the 2H players being viable with obliteration, this would leave 2 unique playstyles for frost
i followed all the changes to frost and i was apoled when i saw the pillar nerf, the dumb injustified pilar nerf (on PTR). hopefully this is them testing for feedback.
currently one of the kyrian soulbinds gives 720 mastery for 10sec (with possible extention of duration), this is unbalanced HUGE amount of stat and will affect all specs that scale with mastery