Getting people for raid is significantly faster than m+, relative to the size of the group. Unless the whole group disbands which usually does not happen, unless everyone was trash.
And in raids someone leaving is no big deal, in m+, it’s done, it’s effin over. Re do it again at a lower level.
You might be baffled by what i said, but i guarantee you, not as much as i am, i am way more baffled that you think that making groups for m+ is less annoying that raids, even though it takes longer to find members relative to the size, and there are all these other annoyances stacked on top, that raids just do not have.
Many people are partially derailing this into me complaining about pugs, other players, and of course, a few delusional ones coming in with entitlement complaints just like every single time anyone criticizes the end game to any degree.
I’m complaining about design decisions that go into M+ and inherently make it a toxic environment to be in, which is exacerbated (not caused) by pugs. It’s funny how barely anyone is even reading the actual content of the post and is jumping on the M+ simp wagon.
Points I already brought up:
M+ punishes you needlessly for failing by dropping your key level, and doubly so for not completing the dungeon by dropping the key and keeping you in the same dungeon for another useless run. There is no need to have your time wasted and progress degraded, not moving forward is punishing enough.
Not receiving worthwhile loot from dungeons themselves and getting it indirectly from the weekly casino feels bad, it feels like I’m not being rewarded for doing content but given an RNG participation trophy once a week.
Mechanic visibility sucks, almost no mechanic has a clear aoe line that you can reliably dance around without going the extra mile just to be safe, and affixes are garbage in general. Entangled actively overlaps with many mechanics that discourage/prohibit movement with bosses like Rokmora, Asaad etc.
Afflicted is the worst affix ever conceived and should be nuked from the game. Bosses like the last one in Neltharus should also be nuked and completely revamped. There is no need to have different types of treasure that each function differently, and from a different range.
Shortcuts and runbacks after dying are intentionally bad and feel even worse in a TIMED game mode that necessitates speed. The game is again punishing you for failing within the dungeon, before then punishing you on a higher level with a bricked key. Nuke the key system entirely and replace it with a Torghast-style menu.
Points I forgot to mention:
Interrupts as a mechanic are garbage with how bad targeting is in WoW, and how awful it feels to do them in a pug without voice comms, and when multiple spells are firing off at the same time. You shouldn’t need to know every single spell in every single dungeon, which also happen to rotate every season, just to know what’s of the highest priority, and then pray that you and 3 others don’t overlap and waste your interrupts.
Boosting further ruins the pug experience by giving you an entirely misleading impression of what you can expect from some of the people you invite. A few days ago I had a retri paladin with 435 ilvl and 1.8k score, doing 30k dps in Neltharus 15, staying mostly at a ranged distance, and barely knowing any mechanics while having the dungeon beat on +14.
Very true, we’re on a downward spiral because only people who like this bs have stuck around, Blizzard keeps doubling down on making the game mode harder than ever just to keep up with them, and they’re bleeding players all around. M+ has never been worse for the average player since it was added.
I’m convinced you are a chatbot designed to tilt people with strawman arguments and an intentionally poor understanding of what’s being said at this point. I refuse to believe anyone is so miserable to be an active contrarian on every single EU post with awful reading comprehension.
I’m listing legitimate gripes with the game and explaining why they’re poorly designed in my opinion. The entirety of your contribution to every post you comment on is grabbing opportunities to take cheap jabs at people and antagonize them, regardless of the topic at hand.
No you aren’t. You’re using emotive language to troll.
You don’t use words like that in “legitimate gripes”. No one ever even used words like “disgusting” and “toxic” years ago. M+ was seen as a game mode that added longevity and challenge to patches.
Now people like you have got jaded and suddenly yesterdays challenging repeatable content has suddenly become “toxic” and “disgusting”… because bandwagons get clicks and original thoughts don’t.
You also make whine threads on multiple characters.
Lmao what, no one ever used harsh language to criticize WoW before? That’s so stupid I’m not even gonna address it, but the severity of the word doesn’t matter, I can say it’s disgusting or that I don’t like it, it’s the same thing it just expresses a stronger emotion.
M+ has been toxic from the start because it was designed to be excessively punishing and endlessly repetitive compared to the rest of the game. You don’t get booted out of a mythic raid and kicked into heroic when you fail a boss or give up before finishing it, you don’t have to keep grinding arbitrary key levels to enter any raid difficulty or attempt any boss. You don’t deal with random arbitrary affixes that simply don’t synergize with half of the mechanics and situations you encounter in dungeons when raiding.
All of these make M+ into a toxic ecosystem because mistakes are more punishing than any other area of the game, and that feels especially bad in a team-based game like WoW where the situation isn’t entirely in your control.
Dark Souls 1 was challenging for its time and mostly fair, Dark Souls 2 was toxic garbage that heavily and needlessly punished you for dying by taking away your max hp and ganking you with 3-5 enemies half the time. It doesn’t matter if the game was balanced around you not having max hp, it FEELS bad being penalized excessively and dealing with RNG.
There is a huge difference between just being challenging and being oppressive, and M+ has always been the latter.
Did so a long time ago, life is just better after dej on ignore, he’s actually one of the very few people i straight up put on ignore and never reply to again.
Usually when i put someone on ignore it’s more of a badge to remind me who has a brain and who does not, or at least it’s there to remind me who i should take with a grain of salt at least. So i may still reply if i so choose.
This guy is different, nothing he ever says is worth giving attention, he’s just here to waste your time, and make his dumb as hell points, that are usually either strawman arguments, poorly thought out, borderline idiotic, or just idiotic, being a contrarian just for the sake of it, or intentionally obtuse, he’s frankly the worst the forums have to offer. There has never been a situation where i wanted to give a reply on what he said even if he quoted me, i frankly value my time a little bit more than that, even if it’s essentially wasted here anyway. But that doesn’t mean i wanna waste it on him.
Now there will be some people with pretty low intelligence saying that i am the same, i’m actually not. I am stubborn because i know i am right most of the time, but if you make a good point i will take it into consideration, many of the points i make about gameplay design, i actually heard from other people, and i just liked them a lot, im not a contrarian just for the sake of it, i just have pretty high standards.
Wanna know the hilarious thing about it? Very likely most groups are pugs anyway I think, but maybe I’m wrong actually. Haven’t seen statistics. However, just look in LFG and the key level range. Seems like almost only extremely hardcore players are doing M+ now lol
You mean mythic + was designed to not be a walkover and have consequences for not completing the key in time.
The whole anti timer argument is simply garbage. All the timer does is place a (generally quite lenient) limit on players to perform to a certain standard. If you dont perform to this standard you “Fail” the timer, the key can still be completed if the whole group wants to.
The key depletion is there because if you cant do the 15 in time you then have the key difficulty decreased so you can try again.
This doesnt make it Toxic and it never has, The Players are the ones that make it toxic.
And there are no sensible ways to deal with that at the moment and i still havent seen any suggestions on the forums that would only deal with leavers/griefers correctly without costing a god damn fortune in additional staff to review each and every run.
We already know that players cannot be trusted to give accurate feedback. And we regularly see on these forums posts about how the automated reporting systems often ban innocent players.
If you cannot handle the pressure of completing a key within a certain time limit then partake in the non timed content.
All i hear you saying in this paragraph is I want to do mythic+ but i dont want to be able to fail it and i dont want anything that makes it harder to do (affixes).
I would be happy for blizz to introduce non timed mythic+ but you shouldnt get the same level of loot out of it that you get in timed content.
The same as you shouldnt get mythic raid loot for doing Normal raids.
TLDR
if you dont want the pressure to succeed dont do content where you can fail.
So then why do you torture yourself with it…? Don’t say gear, because you said that the loot is trash, only an RNG casino once a week. Well, let’s look at my char, I don’t raid, that’s why I don’t have raid trinkets (from this season anyway, still rocking my Icon, but any other dungeon trinket would be fine), not to mention those gem slots you see on my gear, those are all from vault when I didn’t get any other upgrade (that’s like 4-5 weeks of getting only sockets). I’m still in 443, still got my 4 set bonus only from M+/Catalyst, most of my 441 gear is from actual drops from end of dungeons, which you think is useless trashloot… and let’s not forget crafting, so my point is, you are perfectly able to get to 440+ levels with only one game mode, I guess raiding is even better with those fancy trinkets. So why are you bothering with M+ at all…? Just raid/catalyst/craft, maybe do some low level M+ for sockets now and then like me lol. Even before this patch, 441 loot could be aquired from 17s upgrades, now it’s 16s for 447… Dude, they are literally making it easier every patch…
Nowadays people take games too seriously and focus too much on the negatives of games, I choose to see the positive. I guess you are here because you see a lot of positive in WoW as well, so focus on that. Of course it’s fine to criticize the negatives, but I just don’t agree here, because I have mostly positive experience in M+, but mayhe it’s just me focusing less on the negative, e.g. if I encounter toxicity, I just don’t care about it and move on with playing the next run or whatever. And it’s like 1-2 out of 10 runs that go bad, and then it is usually over fast anyway, so I just move on to the next. I seriously don’t know where you play or how that you have so much toxic experience… Plus, I’m a dps with no combat res or heroism, yet I get invited into groups all the time (at least under 20) and there are groups with tanks/healers all the time, so yeah, only a few people play M+ and WoW is dying, bla bla bla…
In LFG.
A lot of more casual runs will be happening but by guilds and communities. So you won’t see them in the LFG too.
They been driven out of the PuG scene by toxicity / elistism.
I’m confused. OP says that many casuals don’t have the choice but to play LFG since they cannot join guilds or communities (which we, the toxic players, I guess, saying they should do), you are saying they play in communities… So which is it? Because I guess both of you know the big truth since everyone on these forums is some kind of guru who knows how things are. Also, if you are right, a lot more people are playing M+ in friendly groups just fine, so how is it dying because of the toxic design…? These forums are just the best…
list as a massive positive.