Why isn't there endgame content for super casuals?

Community General Discussion
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All the ones I’ve played - Cata, Mists, Legion, BfA, SL - except WoD. There’s maybe an argument that DF was about the same level as TWW, but I believe it wasn’t as bad. While progression was limited to “Public Events”, they were at least held in the actual world.

There is always a gear limit, for every level of play. That is not relevant to any argument here. Delves aren’t World content. They are Instanced content. All expacs before DF had a defined progression path in the world of something like 50-100 ilevels in the first patch, from the moment you ding in truly awful gear to the point where you could go anywhere confidently (though maybe with an elite area or two where you needed to be careful), and you could work up to that in the world. In Mists, for example, we could work up to Normal raid level gear (without Tier bonuses) from daily quests - and Normal in Mists was equivalent to Heroic now.

TWW instantly rockets you from 500-ish to about 570 with World content, then pretty much nothing. There is nothing to work for in the world. Blizzard removed the top of the world content to force us into Delves as the only progression option.

It may be a weird flex, but I got my 10,000 Daily Quest Achievement in 2012, and my 10,000 World Quest achieve in 2018. I think I can more credibly speak for the world player’s perspective.

2 Likes
43

There is plenty.
LFR
Normal/follower dungeons
WQ’s
Dailies
Lower tier delves
Transmog collection
Professions (they’re not that complicated, find what you want to craft and put points in to that tree until you can unlock it)

Super casuals have the biggest amount of content. You literally get a lower difficulty version of all end game content and then you get stuff like events, wq’s, transmog collecting etc.

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Ok you lost me… Cata had dailies that rewarded nothing but rep… MoP I tapped out only came back for the big updates thunder island ect still only dailies for rep… Legion was also dailes just for rep? BFA is when the world quests thing started…

I don’t remember this lol…

And dailies aren’t content… sorry its why I refunded DF when they changed dailies to every 3 days lol…

Played since just before TBC… never had a better time as a solo player than now…

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  • Dailies
  • Transmog
  • Mount Farms
  • Reputation
  • Professions
  • Gold Making

Here’s a few things for super casuals, they don’t reward like end-game content, but they’re also not as hard as end-game content.

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I think a lot of players miss the point I’m making. As a super casual, I am not looking to commit time and energy to one of the regular endgame gameplay loops, whether it be Delves or LFR.

Some of it’s great content, it’s not that. I might’ve 10 years ago, or even 5.

Those features might seem casual to some of you. But they’re not to me–not anymore. Hell, I’m approaching 40 in a couple of years. Been playing Warcraft games for nearly three decades.

Had my fair share of Chuck Norris jokes in Molten Core and wiping in Karazhan. Did most of the grinds, the tiers, and quests, and the midnight launches.

I’m tired, boss.

All I want to do is aimlessly wander around Azeroth and enjoy myself for a couple of hours every now and then, picking flowers, doing some fishing, perhaps the occasional World Quest or Event.

I don’t want to lock myself inside an instanced piece of content for however many minutes or hours. I don’t want to chase a gear treadmill anymore, or jump through all the Weekly Content hoops we have nowadays.

But while you play, it’s also fun to have objectives of some type. Could be something super simple. Pick 20 Silverleaf in Elwynn Forest and drop them off at some Merchant Guild in Dornogal, or complete a few quests in Outland at your own pace.

The Renown track, along with the main story campaign, is arguably the main baseline progression system in the game these days, at least if you don’t care about ilvl. It’s tangible and it offers nice cosmetic rewards. That’s honestly enough for me.

Let me do content, Trading Post style, that suits my weird little casual playstyle, and have that contribute a little bit toward my progress in the current expansion.

The Weekly Quest from Dornogal is actually good, it’s just too limited in terms of what you’re allowed to do. The Trading Post is much more flexible. If the game tells me to do 15 World Quests, help out in this specific Khaz Algar zone, or complete the World Event again, it immediately becomes a treadmill.

If they build additional World Content features on top of what’s already there, sign me up. Would be welcome and great. But right now I’d be happy if the game would at least cater to my desire to just stop and smell the flowers.

5 Likes
47

There is no reason you would … actually, maybe there is. The biggest gripe on the forums during 5.0 (apart from “Kung Fu Pandaz lol”) was that it was “mandatory” (that was the most popular word on the forums at the time :stuck_out_tongue: ) for actual raiders to dirty their superior hands with daily quests for rep to be able to buy 476 pieces in case some slot didn’t drop for them.

Um, yes they are. Ther are something added to the game that we can spend time doing and be rewarded for. Quests - of any kind - are content.

How? what are you doing? just Delves? I mean, if you enjoy Delves, than good for you, but surely you can’t believe that the world outside them is better now, or even of a similar quality, than previously?

2 Likes
48

Dear blizzard. I acknowledge that you have given me ample endgame content, but where is my endgame content?

Dude, pack it in.

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This is something that has always bothered me too. Crafting is to me the most perfect content for a non raider/endgamer to go full focus on! Yet it for some reason keep remaining as content meant for raiders. I find it super weird, and super annoying, and have done so for years(and I used to be a raider).

Can we just stop with this nonesense please? I am sooooo tired of being told I don’t see the world, when flying always made me more aware of the world than any other type of travel. Skyriding further enhanced this experience, and I’d like to keep it that way. If being grounded does it for you, by all means… go get grounded. I have zero interest in it, as I find the game way cooler and more immersive when flying. Especially with skyriding, which is a mechanic I sort of imagined in my head way before it became a thing, so I’m super pleased with it. The war within zones has made the experience better than ever. It is super cool flying through the coreway, and I absolutely love flying into Hallowfall. Enjoying it everywhere else too, but I’d rank the trip to Hallowfall super epic in my case. There is absolutely nothing engaging or immersive about ground mounts in my case, and I see no way that will ever change, since your view gets so limited.

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I 100% respect your point of view on Skyriding (and flying in general). It’s the widely accepted view within the community that flying is better and that Skyriding only enhances that. I accept this.

For me, I’m coming at it from a “Lord of the Rings”-type of perspective. I loved the part in Fellowship of the Ring when they were travelling from the Shire to Bree. It’s honestly the best part of the book in my opinion.

Because I love soaking in every little nuance of the world. The flowers, the rocks, the little dirt roads, the mountains towering over the horizon, the lakes and rivers slithering their way through the landscape, and so on.

Mists of Pandaria’s Kun-Lai Summit was a great zone in this regard. As was Highmountain. It felt so cool to slowly progress across these mountainous zones, feeling the landscape get harsher and less forgiving the further you went. But also being greeted by amazing views.

I just don’t think flying offers that, at all.

Sure, you do get a good overview of a zone, and you can see some spectacular sights from this perspective as well.

But you definitely miss out on a lot of nuance. You don’t hear all the ambient sounds on the ground (crickets, frogs, running water, etc.); you mostly hear the wind and the music.

You also get a bunch of downsides, visually. You see distant areas not rendering as well (less of a problem these days with Blizzard’s excellent new technology for shading faraway objects in different layers, but still sometimes an issue), you sometimes see artificial patterns in the way objects are placed, or a coastline that hasn’t really been given a lot of love by the developers, and so on.

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low level dungeons, normal raids, professions, pet battles, non rated PVP

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This is what I see when flying - I don’t notice it when grounded because my view gets so limited. It just doesn’t work for me at all. I only start noticing details of the world when I fly - possibly because flying to me is more fantasy immersive than boring riding or walking around. There is nothing special about being grounded. If you remember that path up the mountain in Kun Lai during MoP. I never noticed it was a really cool mountain path until I could fly. I can understand if riding is more immersive to you, but then you have the option to do so. I do not have the option to fly if you limit my flying because you think everyone else gets more immersed the same way as you do. Pick up your ground mount and enjoy the game, meanwhile I’ll enjoy my super epic flying skills(I’m a druid after all), above your head, not interefering with your ground activities.

53

No I don’t. I’m a world content player - I read every quest, see every cinematic, listen to every “stay a while and listen”, or other dialogue. I even read the comments on grey items I loot. You make it sound like I am never on ground. I just don’t travel grounded. When I’m doing content I am obviously on the ground, and that spot might be anywhere on the map(I have gathering, and I have tons of alts).

There is just something super awesome about flying, and even more after we got skyriding, that I do not want to miss out on. Ground riding has none of that. If ground riding were given more abilities too, maybe I’d enjoy it more. Atm it’s just stale and very unengaging, and that is how it has been ever since we learned to fly in TBC.

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Will since I’m still subbed yeah?

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I 100% get it, I feel the exact same way. I usually have plenty of fun and I’ll traverse places on foot just to enjoy the world. I love some of your ideas :slight_smile:

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So am I, but the question was: what is there about the TWW world endgame content that you are enjoying?

You said you unsubbed when Blizzard slashed teh world content endgame in Dragonflight. I get that. They really screwed us over with that change.

But what are you doing now that you enjoy?

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You got that right ! :smiling_imp: My offer still stands, and I am forever optimistic that one day you will take it.

Also, when are you available for some Delving ? Last time I had a ton of fun, and the relaxing after ping-ponging 11s and 12s was very helpful to prevent a burn-out.

Well not really. Because they tried that already.

When it comes to rewards, you have the discussion of difficulty. Because of the impact that would have in other PvE modes. Its the same discussion with Delves to be honest.

And they tried giving better gear, or lower gear in Open World activities. With the exact same impact Delves have right now. VERY similar to Delves.

In fact, DF S1 launch was very similar. Everyone was out there killing rares and doing WQ for some special “purples” of 380 ilvl (if I remember correctly). But once M+ season started, all that became irrelevant and those zones became empty once again.

And I fear Delves will go the same direction if they keep nerfing the Hero/Crest gear acquisition in M+. But they have to nerf M+, to respect the effort of M+ enjoyers.

Its a hard situation Blizzard got themselves into. Anything they do will anger Delvers or M+ers. And in early S1 of WW they managed to anger both at the same time. There is really very few ways out of it.

The point is that in the past they way they avoided this problem with Open World activities was to limit gear to Veteran/Champion. And that is why rewards are limited.

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Not in the sense of progression.

That’s why I’m so defensive when it comes to people asking to change delves at ‘our’ expense. I want that type of thing to stop, because it already happened way too often and it has ‘ruined our fun’ time and time again.

Seperate gear for seperate activities is still a viable solution imo. Yes, they’d have to make changes to the gear UI: You’d need several loadouts so you could wear all that gear at the same time (in case you participate in several different endgame activities). But that’s doable. Hell, if they did that, you could even have a gear set for outdoor added to the mix.

Not sure, honestly. I have a D&D session this afternoon and after DMing half a day, I’m usually pretty drained, so I don’t think I’ll be gaming tonight.

59

That already existed in DF. You had special “tier sets” that only worked in open world. The only difference is that it was Vet/Champion.

For sure. Or a partial divide. But they wont do it… not this season for sure.

They tried this in DF with Vet/Champion levels and crests. Much like in M+ with Hero track levels and crests.

Its a tricky discussion Tah. Because gear is usable in all forms of PvE. So discussing gear progression in Delves (or Open World in the case of OP) impacts gear progression in M+/Raid. Therefore, even you being defensive about Delves is a very valid opinion, but futile.

Because your opinion puts your fun over the fun of others. And of course, other people are also entitled to value their game mode over yours. So, its hard/impossible to reach a compromise and it creates drama.

Its not your fault. Its Blizzards fault for digging their own grave basically.

And as you correctly pointed out, there is only 1 way out: Separate gear. So until this exists, Open World activities will remain “unrewarding” and “empty”.

Just let me know. If possible a bit in advance. Send me a PM ingame. Because I schedule things in WoW with people via WhatsUp, Discord and ingame Whisps. Its the price you pay for doing “organized content” and I want to make sure im available when you are.

60

I think a lot of people are better than they give themselves credit for. The issue is that the time-based nature of M+ is causing stress and these people feel intimidated and don’t want to destroy keys as they learn, and so they just stay out.

Let me be clear: If you can do a +8 delve, 99% chance you can do a M+ 5 as well.

It’s more than that, as you go on to say but I think I’ll say it in my own words, too:

If there are places you cannot go, those places become a mystery. If the place directly rejects your advance but gives you a way to go there, it becomes tantalizing. You’re now incentivized to improve to explore, and that really completes WoW’s loop, just as it completes the one found in vanilla, in Pokemon, in The Witcher 3, in Elden Ring, in a good D&D campaign, and in basically any other open world RPG I can think of.

This is not really the fault of addons though addons certainly don’t help. This is the fault of WoWHead.

They’re datamining the game and putting everything online, and then people are taking all that and putting it into WoW itself through addons. The game also plain tells you a lot of this stuff before you ever have a chance to see it.

What WoWHead does to WoW, to me, is almost as bad as what happens to Sudoku once you become a software engineer and learn how to solve it programmatically in just a few lines of code. It just takes away the challenge of figuring it out and makes it really boring. And once you know, it’s really hard to keep taking the challenge seriously. Fortunately for WoW, it can add more unsolved content while Sudoku is just plain defeated.

I don’t think Blizzard should allow datamining their data files - just like they don’t with the cinematics - and even with them WoWHead manages to post the whole thing online. It’s very frustrating to see the whole thing spoiled and mapped out before you even get to play it.

And I think the worst part of all this is that Blizzard used Season of Discovery to push going to WoWHead to find your runes by making it basically unsolvable on your own. They just don’t get it.

1 Like
61

Isn’t this Vice-versa.

At the end we are looking at the Numbers .

We can check each expansion participation by each format and we can give a response about how successful each format is .

Currently we have 4 options of playing .

    1. World Content ( also the lower quality/difficulty delve/lfr hc~dungeon) The casual content.
    1. We Have Delves higher tiers M+ up to 5/6~
    1. We have Heroic Raids and M+ up to 12-13

  • 4 And of course the Mythic Raid and the best competitive M+ team that are also mythic-raiders:D

If you pick up the numbers on this Format 3 and 4 we have a participation of almost 10% ?? Because i’m a good guy , Let’s say 15%.
What becomes of the Largest player base participation on 1 and 2 ? What happens when you don’t provide content for the largest participation that exist in the format 1 or 2 . ??

  • Dailies ?

Pick up this DK character 612 ilvl while This week i haven’t logged Friday and Y/day ~ there wasn’t anything to do .

I logged today .
I have already cap the valor point ( no need to do quest for vp ) . No item exist for further upgrade .
Basically all dailies are giving me rewards that i don’t need and can’t use.

  • Transmog? any transmo is for doing older content so basically play older expansion?

  • Mount farm ? again there are 4 World content mounts… Unless ~~play older expansion …

  • Reputation ? LOL. That’s a good one . I got only arathi at 25=max lvl . the next 7.5k reputation give me 1.1k gold 6 healing pet item and got 2 weathered crests …(that i can collect just by flying:D )
    Proffesions ?? Everything is gated … And also
    Gold making ? 2 days ago on discord=reddit a huge uproar about an insane amount of herbs/mineral that made the Ah price dropping more than Half… Null stone from 2.8k dropped to 1.3k , the herbs are even worse where , from 20-36 gold to 5=15 golds.

Basically what you write is 1/2 week content for even this character that i play 2/3 hour max pet week.