I have been suspecting this outcome for a while now, but I think they’ll save the resources rather than do it, The other extreme, a single faction, also takes up too many resources as well imho. If they’re not prepared to do the work required to make a neutral faction, trying to make the 10+ races all one faction is 100x the work imho.
Going along yes, slowly. The biggest problem being murderous sparkle goats from another part of the universe and separately, war criminals. Oh and Blizzard’s apparent contempt for their own lore, but I went the AU route so \o\
It’s not only about their resources. More factions means longer queue time for each faction and it’s not great even now. One united faction could solve their problems with sub losses in the long term, however. They probably won’t change anything in the old content, new forsaken players wil still do quests in UC and join the Horde as they do now. Just mixed teams and such.
Called it. I had a bet. "This thread won’t be a serious discussion about peace and why it cannot exist, it will be the weekly ‘Lets complain about the Horde’ thread.
You did not disappoint. Well, apart from in the sense of being utterly predictable and Friday-esque, but sure, I’ll nibble.
Ok, Lets start with your use of the word ‘Fanboys’. Right. How old are you? Seriously. How old are you? Using the phrase ‘Fanboys’ has about as much legitimacy in a discussion, as Godwin’s Law. If you don’t know what Godwin’s Law is, you kind of just proved it, using the ‘F’ word, not the A.H’ word.
OK, Next up. ‘Genocide’. Has the Horde committed Genocide? Yes. Yes it absolutely has. Has the Alliance committed Genocide? Yes. Yes it absolutely has. Shall I define Genocide for you, or rather, shall I tell you what the definition of Genocide actually is?
“the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular nation or ethnic group.”
That certainly applies to Theramore, and Southshore, however it also applies to Dalaran and Taurajo. Genocide is not ‘Wiping out a race’ It is wipingout a segment of the populace based on race, political leaning, or religion. Both sides have committed Genocide. That’s the official definition, we happy now?
And yet in Northrend, it was actually a Gnome, a member of the Alliance, who perfected the Blight, when even the Forsaken were still stumbling around because it was basically just giving people stomach cramps as the starting quests show!
That’s pretty grim. I’ll give you that one, that is grim. Can we swap that for ‘Mutilating the dead’? That was an Alliance favourite.
‘Forcibly raising the dead’
Whoah, hang on. You know they -are- given a choice to sack it off and just go “Nah, this isn’t for me” and Suicide. You know the Alliance recognises the rights of the Undead, right? I mean they give one of them field command and place them in charge of living troops in Andorhal. Say it again, with me “The Alliance are cool with Undead”.
What is dangling a civilian over a shark? What is dangling an enemy prisoner over spinning rotorblades? What is using your own thumbs to burst someone’s eyeballs. Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you, the Grand Alliance.
I was hoping this would comeup. You’re on about Mana Bombs aren’t you? Come on, you’re on about Mana Bombs.
Let me link you this bad boy of a quest.
Dun Dun -Duuuunnnnn
Shocker, Alliance is absolutely happy with using this ‘Oh so Evil’ Horde technology. They can’t make 'em, but they’re happy to use stolen ones.
Let this just sink in. Who are the primary two commanders of the Alliance on the Thunder Isle? That would be Jaina Proudmoore and Vereesa Skankrunner, Now who, would you say, are the two individuals, in the world entire, who would have the most reason to hate Mana Bombs?
Could that be…Jaina? Who lost a city? and Vereesa, who lost a husband?
But heck with it, Lets just use Mana Bombs on the Horde. “It’s OK when we do it!”
I mean if you cannot see the hypocrisy of Jaina and Vereesa, then, I’m not even going to dress it up, I am just going to call you out as a hypocrite.
We’ll come to the key factor later. But -What about that Tauren village-. Lets examine the situation. And I know this is hard, right, but if you try to see the Tauren as ‘people’ and not ‘Horde’ you might find this easier to compartmentalise. Do I sound condescending? Good. I intended to. So. Lets take it as it is. Lets actually look at this, and put this stupid “hurr hurr, they keep banging on about that Tauren Village” rubbish to bed.
Camp Taurajo is a hunting lodge essentially. It has not played a part in the Horde and Alliance War. It just hasn’t. I mean even when the Dwarves -invaded- the Barrens, it hasn’t. Tauren Culture is largely hunter-gatherer, with rare settlements. It’s kind of Native American. You can’t miss the references, and they are intentional.
The local Imperial Power. That being Theramore, is actually on good terms with the Bloodhoof Tauren, They don’t really understand each other, but their leaders are level headed, it works. Even when the Factions themselves are at war, Taurajo and Theramore do not kick off, massively. Certainly there is no concerted war effort.
Then along comes Garrosh.
And yeah, y’know, he’s tricked. I mean Garrosh is an utter and complete Tool anyway, but he legit is tricked, its not his fault, and he thinks the Alliance have kicked off, so he kicks off in Ashenvale. I mean he’s wrong, the Alliance are wrong, everyone should have fired their ambassadors and just had a chill pill and started again, but wars in real life have started for stupider reasons. Do you know a state of War was declared between Australia, and the species of birds known as Emu’s? Do you know there was a War between Great Britain and Zanzibar that lasted 38 minutes (I think) during which one RAF training flight plane flew over the Zanzibarian capital -UNAWARE- that their two countries were at war, completely unarmed, and Zanzibar promptly surrendered. Do you know that their legitimately was a war started over someone getting their ear cut off? (I’m not joking, google ‘The War of Jenkin’s ear’) That there was a war where only one gunshot was fired, and the only victim was a -Kettle- (I love that these are all real, it reminds me how ridiculous as a species we can be)
Anyway, on track, I do ramble, my apologies. SO really, Taurajo literally and figuratively Dindu Nuffin’ wrong.
Things go belly up in Ashenvale, and quite rightly, the Alliance feel aggrieved.
They have a -massive- frickin’- fleet. I mean massive, I mean, only Kul Tiras and Zandalar can rival it. They could have went “Lets take the quick option, and sail to X, drop off troops, come back, pick up more, drop them off, you know, prosecute and win a war strategically?”
"Lets start a vastly lengthy campaign through territory we don’t need to cross, and antagonise the natives, who aren’t actually taking an aggressive stance here, lets find their sacred places and ooh, I dunno, lets start building a road through them. This is our Manifest Destiny (Points if you get the reference and why that would be an absolute WTF! to the Tauren) “But, Lady Proudmoore, we could just…go the short way round, by boat, it would save our lives, and mean we don’t have to …well, mean we don’t have to kill civilians”
“Make sure our soldiery wear Theramore’s colours”
“Wait, hang on Milady, you -want- the world to see this?”
“Yes, the Horde’s brutality must be punished”
“Its full of civilians”
“Hush, Christie Golden will write that Baine says its OK”
"I don’t really think she is a moral arbiter given she doesn’t understand what the heck she is talking about, I mean next thing she will be comparing a peaceable hunter gatherer township to a military fortress in the process of invading a sovereign country, during a wa- Jesus H Christ… You’re serious? We knew Jaina was a Self Insert…We knew you slammed your two actual Characters into the end of ‘War Crimes’ We knew that you said your favourite charactes that you “Would always favour in narrative” were Anduin Wrynn, Jaina Proudmoore, and Baine Bloodhoof. All of this we knew.
So, lets go with Taurajo. Its a bright, crisp morning, They come out of nowhere. Normally, you can reason with them, I mean they all look the same, glistening silver bodies like angry beetles with shields and swords,
but…what, what do they have to do with you? The Chieftain of Chieftain’s says you are at peace! Why are the small folk from across the water killing you? Horde and Alliance are not at war again are they? Earthmother save us, these monsters are not just killing your people, they are mutilating the dead, cutting off horns to make -drinking vessels!-
Couple of reminders. There were children at Camp Taurajo Ain’t nobody alive afterwards. We admitting the Alliance kills kids? I mean,Khaz Modan kind of shows us that Dwarves and Gnomes at least are pretty cool with Infanticide. “But the Alliance let the Taurajo Civillia- “Have you ever read a book? Do you understand what the ‘Trail of Tears’ was?” That is -so far- from OK, that it isn’t even on the same continent!” You can’t spell America without “We killed a lot of people for having different skin colours and religion!”
That’s the Alliance in Cataclysm. They are intent on building a road, allowing the Alliance armies, to move to Ashenvale quickly. They could have used a frickin boat! Which would have been quicker.
You know what is even worse? They could have sent Theramore troops to attack Taurajo. They could have done that. Jolly white tabards with golden anchors on them… I mean that is who is storming through the Barrens, building this road, That’s them. That’s General Hawthorne’s Army. And if General Hawthorne, who seems in every regard to have been a decent man, had sent such troops, we’d never hear people banging on about Taurajo. They’d have rocked up, killed the defenders, not cast the civilians and children out to be killed by Centaur or Quillboar, and his name would have had noble merit.
But that isn’t what happened, dear Gods above and below…that’s not what happened.
He sent, by his own words, raised from the Stockades, a Stormwind Penal Regiment.
A Penal Regiment.
Let that sink in a moment.
The People who have, in history, used Penal Regiments include Napoleon’s France (OK, Over Expansionist, but they get a free pass for not actually being evil), They did! They Did! They allow Walt Disney, but they are afraid of a guy with similarly religious intolerant views! That’s amazing! Thats next level frickin’ crazy! (In Case Blizzard panics and censors the words, fella’s with red armbands, white circle, black Heukenkreuz on it)
The Soviets under Stalin. Just sayin’ the fella with the silly moustache is rightly regarded as a monster, The fella we all called ‘Uncle Jo’ because he was on our side, killed three times as many people with his Strafbats. And the Communist side during the Chinese Civil War after WWII ended. Yeah, everyone forgets people were still fighting away and killing each other after America nuked Japan.
Penal Battalions were made up of deserters, murderers, rapists, thieves, extortionists, war criminals, torturers and sadists.
-That- Is what Good Guy Alliance unleashed on the mostly civilian populace of Camp Taurajo.
I mean you see this! You have a quest as the Alliance ‘Hero’ to basically go in and hush it up by summarily executing these Penal troops who are in the process of defiling the dead! as the Horde ‘Hero’ your forces are so incensed by a War Crime that even the Forsaken have not descended to, that you just cut out the middleman, and go straight for General Hawthorne.
And do you know what? That’s fair. He committed a War Crime, Tough. Doesn’t matter that he did it with a shiny lion on a tabard it is a War Crime. You do not deploy Penal troops when there is a risk of civilian harm. I mean you shouldn’t deploy them full-stop, and it is in its own right a War crime, but against a civilian populace, or location where enemy non-combatants dwell, it is without question, or any form of doubt, a War Crime.
Who authorised those troops?
Come on, you know the name, I’ll give you a clue, white hair with a streak of blonde. Two Initials, J.P.
Who committed a Warcrime that got ‘forgotten’?
Ooh, Ooh, can I pick you up on the maths here. How many Elves? How many?
You remember the three civilians that Vereesa orders you to murder as the Alliance ‘Hero’ right? Ooh! What about the one dangled over a shark who gets killed? Ooh, Ooh, what about the ones the Silver Covenant are slicing up on the streets in broad daylight, that Jaina is just walking past. You remember how many guards there actually were? Yeah. Ain’t just two, but neat attempt at making it sound petty. Good to know that by Alliance logic, living in a city you have lived in all your life, and refusing to move out when a paramilitary group with no legal authority tells you so, means that they can unleash murder hoboes on you.
Suddenly the Horde sounds a lot more justified.
Sorry, what again? What five elves? You can’t be referring to the Purge of Dalaran, unless you are ignoring the Lore and trying to white-wash it?
Generally its Velen, Daddy Illidan, Dadghar, Magni, Tyrande, Malfurion, actually…Whose space ship was it we yet again had to fly on? Wait no, I’m confusing flying Ships, the Alliance has so many, for no frickin’ reason. I was thinking about Jaina’s flying ship, because Jaina is the most important thing this expansion. I of course meant hers. Jaina is crucial, and not because she is Christie Golden’s -self professed!- favourite character.
Jaina has to be inserted into -everything- that happens.
Well, we can’t really have humans as overt bad guys can we? It doesn’t float well with the American market, strikes a bit to close to home, but if we’re going with Kul Tirans (As Jaina is Kul Tiran) Let us go with murder, torture, execution of civilians with no trial, a coup d’état, animal cruelty, forced expulsion Gawds, this is sounding like Garrosh’s list of crimes…
But anyway, that’s Jaina and Kul Tiras. Want to bang on about this some more?
At the end of Siege of Orgrimmar. I know people love their Game of Thrones/Kings Landing ending, but that isn’t how a war ends. That just simply is not how it happens. That isn’t winning a War. That is wiping the table clean for round two. Look at the treaty of Versailles, That, is ending Round One. What happened? Round Two! That is not Victory! Victory is making the enemy go “I’ve had enough, I don’t want to fight anymore” It Emphatically is not making them go “I WANT REVENGE!”
Varian at the end of SoO was actually the height of statesmanship. He had won. He knew it, Vol’jin knew it, everyone knew it, do you know what he didn’t do? He didn’t rub it in Vol’jin’s face. Vol’jin was able to walk away, and his people were able to still hold their heads high and meet their own reflections in the mirror. In that one instant, Varian Wrynn, and Vol’jin both acted like absolute statesmen. If either one had played the fool, it wouldn’t have worked, but both were the consummate rulers.
What do you think would have happened if the Alliance had went Kill Crazy at the end of SoO? DO you seriously think there would still -be-a Stormwind? an Ironforge? Would there still be a Silvermoon or Thunder Bluff?
Oh man that’s crazy. How do you think Wars are fought? To what end are they fought?
I’m legitimately asking this as someone who has served in the Armed forces. What do you think -IS- the aim, of your countries armed forces?
What do you think is their job?
If your answer is the 100% annihilation of the enemies armed forces, then please by all that is holy, never, never, never enlist in your nation’s armed forces. Just do not. You will wind up on a War Crimes rap.
How you end a war is how SoO ended. That is how a War ended. Did the Allies systematically kill every male German of military age?
Of course not!
Did they end the war when the current leadership under Admiral Doenitz went “You’ve won. We’ve had enough, We’ve lost, the madman in charge is dead, please, you’re just killing civilians, We’ll meet your terms, just stop, just stop” (Doenitz was a dodgy chap, but he knew when to hold up his hands and wave the white flag.)?
Yes they did.
So what, you might think. Imagine that Donitz had the Mana Bomb(Atom Bomb)and the Blight (Chemical Warfare) and the enemy had given them nothing to lose…
There Isn’t a city as vulnerable to the Blight as Ironforge apart from Gnomeregan, although…that ship has sailed. Stormwind. It’s begging for an arcane blue haze crackling on its horizon, the sheer amount of blue powder in the city would be horrific…
Varian Wrynn won a War. That’s what he did.
Then they’ll die. That’s not in a threatening way. That’s in a “If they follow that path, they will die” way. That isn’t how you win. That is how you lose.
Ummm….Pretty sure the Alliance declared War on the Trolls, at the Elves request. In fact by ‘Pretty sure’ I mean 100% certain. The HUman Alliance kicked off first.
I’d say “Can you tell us how old you are to make such a juvenile statement” But I’m pretty sure the proof is in the pudding, so we will go with, you are a minor.
OK, in any form of conflict, both sides are capable of conducting bad acts. We saw this in World War I, where both sides made rather extensive use of poison gas, and again in World War II where both sides made extensive use of carpet bombing, especially of locations such as cities. Whilst Poison gas itself was not used (This believed to be a personal foible of Adolf Hitler, who as a young Obergefreiter/Corporal) in the Wehrmacht had been victim of that horror, and as much of a horrible person as he undoubtedly was, Fair play, That was horrible) various other methods of mass destruction were utilised.
That’s the same as the Horde/Alliance war.
The Horde has used Blight/The Alliance has used Blight. The Horde has raised the Dead/The Alliance has raised the Dead, The Horde has used Mana Bombs/The Alliance has used Mana Bombs.
I’m not sure where it is going anymore…
Except not there.
[quote=“Dainara-draenor, post:24, topic:62095”]
Yep, OK, seems like a valid and balanced approach…Gosh, right, Suppose the discussion is over, how about a slice of Lux Vult for tea, and we just…I dunno…Anyone for a slice of “Its the Weekend, Alliance Win” cake anyone,it’s been seven days, perhaps some of that and then a game of whist.
Apparently Blizzard are afraid of the names of the Boogeymen from 1939, but not sufficiently scared enough that they allow me to edit them. That is…astounding. You won’t let me edit the name, but are quite happy for it to remain untouched. That’s… To be fair, that’s next level.
No, they don’t. In Cataclysm, the horde has butchered Dalaran mages, not only those in Ambermill but even the officially Dalaran-aligned mages and workers around the crater. Back then, every horde-alligned knife ear in Dalaran should have been rounder up and made to give up their allegiance or be imprisoned. Yet Sunreavers never attempted to apologize or make amends.
It makes sense that the people of Dalaran rose up against supporters of such brutality. The purge was vengeance for what happened to Archmage Ataeric and his brethren.
Peace is an option. Both factions are at their limit and people are exhausted from the years of constant war. Such circumstances could call for an uneasy peace and some sort of a summit where two sides could discuss on how to simply coexist.
It’s simply not feasible to have the war go on forever and we all know that neither faction will ever win. So the only realistic outcome is:
Peace through negotiations.
Complete breakdown of the factions.
We have to remember that at the end of this war both factions will likely be in:
Possible enormous economic crisis.
Severe lack of manpower.
Possible food and supply shortage.
I simply can’t see this work from any logical standpoint so the only thing that is left is kne of the two options from above.
The Sunreavers should direct their hatred towards Aethas, the man who refused to leave the city peacefully and failed to keep his underlings under control, rather than Jaina, who was just doing what was necessary to ensure the safety and stability of the Kirin Tor. But “MUH 2 GUARDS WHO WERE KILLED IN COLD BLOOD”.
But to be honest I can’t blame those few Jaina haters. They have gotten so used to the Alliance acting like a useless puppy, that when they bite back because they got tired of being abused, they are suddenly the Sith Empire.
Shame on your leader for refusing to leave the city when Jaina told him to and stubbornly choosing violence.
But don’t worry, it’s not a purge fiesta anymore. Brigante is the only Blood Elf stan left, and reading his essays is so boring, but all the others are gone. Well, there is also Erevien who pops up whenever his account on MMO-Champion is banned, but whatever.