Why peace is not an option


#42

Said leader was encased in a block of ice that prevented him from leaving. :bell:

The rest didn’t get a chance to leave after the Silver Covenant murdered their means of escape. :bell:


#43

Said leader was encased in a block of ice after he refused to leave the city, claiming that it was his city too, all the while disregarding the overwhelming odds stacked against him.

Oh, was Jaina simply meant to keep a dangerous Horde organization so close to her in a time of world war? An organization that had already betrayed her once and infiltrated an Alliance major city nonetheless.


#44

So what you’re saying is that Jaina was as unstable as the nuclear reactors at Chernobyl when she in the span of 5 seconds went from murdering four Sunreaver guards to offering their leader a chance to leave to preventing him from doing so. :bell:


#45

She blasted those guards because they were standing in their way, a common mentality amongst the Horde folks (and she was kind of pissed off because the Sunreavers betrayed her despite her best intentions to maintain Dalaran’s neutrality). She offered Aethas the chance to leave the city, as they were no longer welcomed. Backed into a corner by Aethas stubbornly refusing, and still knowing that the Sunreavers were a threat that had already betrayed her once, she decided to remove them by force.

That’s not being unstable, that’s being smart. The Sunreavers betrayed her, it’s already too much that they were given the chance to leave the city and not just executed immediately. If you betray someone, you’re done for, that’s how it works.

But since the Warcraft universe is a carebear universe where traitors tend to get away with all their betrayals (look at the Horde for example), someone who delivers harsh consequences on a traitor might look evil or mad.

Ah, the good old Purge of Dalaran fiesta. I really do wonder how some people think leaders should handle betrayal during a time of world war.


#46

Every time a war happens, my head cannon has to rewrite the size of the cities from both factions.

Maybe one day I have to imagine cities with millions of people, like ancient Rome, because it’s obvious that only such huge cities can afford such great losses and huge number of concriptions.

This reminds me of how unrealistic, the two factions system is.

Sylvanas told in the first cinematic:
“Alliances forged and broken.”

Ok.
How many times as race got disappointed with a faction, to the point of leaving it and becoming neutral or joining the opposing side ?
They can’t.
Because once a race is made playable they can’t join the other side.
How many times does that happen in our reality ?
Often.

People say: " It’s Warcraft.’

Ok if everyone loves war, why Cataclysm was worst than WoTLK ?
WoTLK (United war against Arthas) - 12 000 000 subscribers.
Cataclysm (War between the factions and Deathwing) - The beginning of WoW decline.

BfA was marketed as the fastest selling expansion.
I wonder how it’s going on in terms of subscription maintenance and profits regarding Legion ?

Realism, logistics.

Know when to go to war, when to settle for a peace agreement.

Warcraft is very unrealistic, regarding those aspects.

When the factions aren’t at war, they are fighting a bigger threat.

That means both military are always under pressure to provide more soldiers.

Even the recent Allies are already being asked to supply man power for the grinder.

Cheers.


#47

The smart and rational thing to do would have been to calmly assemble the remaining council of six and confront Aethas alone and then to present him with the information that she and the Alliance PC uncovered in Darnassus.

How to go from there is less certain given the Sunreaver’s apparent role in the defense of Theramore. I can understand if Jaina was convinced that the entire faction was compromised after the events in Darnassus and thus needed to be dealt with. But If that was her goal it would have been infinitely better to delegate that responsibility to the Kirin Tor itself and not an armed partisan militia with a vested interest in seeing the Sunreavers punished for merely existing.

Then again, I’m of the opinion that the purge was morally reprehensible because of how botched it turned out and not for the reasons it was carried out over.

But that players, mostly Alliance players mind you, who have access to meta knowledge of the events STILL try to justify everything about the purge really does boggle the mind. You cant claim plausible deniability like Jaina and the rest of the Kirin Tor could. :bell:

Edit: Do forgive the slow replies but doing these dailies when Mechagon is swarmed by Alliance rats really does take the mind off the forums.


#48

I’m not justifying the methods used in the Purge, I am justfying Jaina’s decision. Leaving the decision to the Council of Six would have been worse, because as I said it is a time of world war and an organization close to the Kirin Tor had already betrayed you, and the leader of said organization was in the Council and could have somehow manipulated the other members against you. Betrayal will be answered with violence, that’s how things work in war. And Jaina had the strength and numbers to punish the Sunreavers. Perhaps if Aethas had left the city like she said, there wouldn’t have been a carnage that day. Actually, you can remove the “Perhaps”, it’s Aethas’ fault if there was a Purge. If you want to test the patience of someone stronger than you, be prepared to face the consequences. That’s how things work, sorry.


(Araphant) #49

Oh, yay, another purge debate…


#50

Maybe in a brutal dictatorship things are handled that way.

At least Jaina recognized her wrongdoings in that fleeting moment in the newest cinematic. Small baby steps towards atonement for her sins. :bell:


#51

A brutal dictatorship like the Horde, you mean?

Not even in a dictatorship to be honest. It’s common knowledge that if you betray your leader, you most likely get imprisoned or die. It’s not rocket science. It’s already much that Jaina confronted Aethas about it to be honest, someone like Garrosh or Sylvanas would have just started the Purge without even telling someone to leave because they are no longer welcomed.


(Zarao) #52

I do wonder too…

We can ask Sylvanas.
How is it that she managed to handle “betrayal” in a much cooler fashion than Jaina? Maybe soy?


(Brigante) #53

Oh Boy, I love it when people make this mistake…

OK, Clueing you in here, there are two generations that can be called Boomers. These are ‘Baby Boomers’ and ‘Echo Boomers’. They are separated by an age Demographic called ‘Generation X’ mainly because ‘X’ is a symbol we commonly use for something that we don’t really know how to define.
Now, ‘Baby Boomers’ are quite obvious. They are the Post War generation. The ones born after 1945, but before 1964 Why Baby Boomers? Because it was a term that made sense, there was an increased rate in people having children immediately post WWII.

Then everything went a bit horrible. The Cold War was at its height, people weren’t having kids as much because, well, no one thought they’d live long enough to bring up those kids, and who would father or carry a child in a world where the threat of nuclear war was not just a possibility, but reckoned a certainty. We didn’t know how to categorise them, and they grew up in a horrible dystopian kind of “Am I going to live to be 20?” sort of mindset, all their music was decay and destruction, all their films were annihilation, and the adverts they were shown in primary schools told them what to do -when- -not if- the Soviets launched the nukes. (Pro tip, painting your windows with white Dulux paint will not in fact prevent Radiation from getting into your house. 'Protect and Survive ’ lied to us)
This was the generation born in the late 60’s to early 80’s. We -knew- we were gonna die to nukes, we’d just seen the world’s mightiest superpower humbled and defeated by a nation most of us had never even heard of, and one of the top songs in the charts was titled “Heaven knows I’m Miserable now” It was Goth and Punk, and New Romantics,
Right, with me? That’s Generation X.

Now, and this is the really fun part, in the late 80’s the next generation was born, kinda the kids of Generation X. By this time we’d went ‘Holy Cow, The Soviets aren’t going to kill us stone dead!’ so people started having kids, as the worldwide economy kind of picked itself up, spat on its hands and slicked it’s hair and said “I’m back, baby!”.
Now, originally, these were called Generation Y, but this was mostly by MTV (Ask your parents)but they then became known by other names, one of which, was Millennials. They were the generation who would become adults at the turn of the Millennium. They’re the generation who grew up with mobile phones, with the Internet, with MMORPG’s, with Myspace and Facebook. See, Originally they were called Generation Y, then it changed to Millennials, then they realised that world population had seen a massive increase since we realised we weren’t going to nuke each other until we glowed, and we were seeing a second ‘Boom’

Hence Echo-Boomers.

So unless you are between the ages of 54, and 39, you, mi compadre, are a Boomer. If you’re between those ages, welcome to Generation X, we had the crappest childhood, but some awesome music. (Nirvana were awesome, Fight me!)
So, yeah, I fall in the almost exact middle of that demographic. Of all living people, I am the least likely you could call a Boomer. I mean I am pretty much equidistant.

So, you can throw around the word ‘Boomer’ all you like, Chances are? It applies to you, not me.

Oh, just as an aside, publicly stating you are intimidated when people use lots of words does not make you look good, or cool, or groovy, or hip, or whatever you boomers call it, it makes you look bad, uneducated, uncouth and illiterate, The latter is a thing that people can work on, and a condition they can better, the others are just arrogant rudeness.

Just going to remind you, it was a Horde race that co-founded Dalaran. I mean that is -where- the name comes from.

‘Every Horde aligned Knife ear’ What game are you playing? Seriously? What game are you playing? Do you think it is Dragon Age?

I love this almost as I love the ‘Boomer’ thing.

Races that do not have pointed ears.
Humans
Dwarves
Gnomes
Some Forsaken
Pandaren

Races that do have pointy ears:
Night Elves
Draenei
Worgen
Orcs
Trolls
Tauren
Some Forsaken
Blood Elves
Goblins

Can we just stop a moment and realise how ridiculous the ‘Knife Ear’ comment is, when the majority of the sentient species on Azeroth actually -have- pointy ears, and -round ears- is the abnormality?

OK, so your premise is that Sylvanas is a baddie. We all know that. We don’t have to like it, but we know it.

Why should they? They had nothing to do, and no knowledge of what had happened…How on earth would they know? are you confusing it with later occurrences?

I mean did the Alliance apologise for murdering ambassadors who came in peace, based on their race? I don’t think they did, did they?

They didn’t.

That isn’t what happened at all. That emphatically and 100% is not what happened. The People of Dalaran were terrified at the Paramilitary actions on the streets, as the Alliance race NPC’s show you when you talk to them. They are more scared of Jaina and the Silver Covenant, than of the Sunreavers.

The Purge was absolutely 0% to do with that. It is rare I will correct someone in such blunt terms, but no, you are entirely incorrect.

Hmm. Childish, but let us indulge.

The Four Sunreaver guards were not the worst War Crime ever, no one has stated so, except for the more hysterical elements who like to play the ‘Whatabout’ game.

Was it a War crime? Meh, yeah it was. But they were at least military personnel. I mean it was a crime, but, eh. Using a defeated civilian population is never fine, No one said it was. Why do people trying to justify the Alliance come up with this rubbish that no one trying to justify the Horde says. Who said taking a pop at Alliance civilians was OK?
Show me the link?

Nobody thinks that. It was 100% bad, know why? Because GARROSH was doing it. Same token, Slicing up Civilians on the street is cool when Elsa orders it. Sorry, Sorry, I meant Jaina.

Theramore was justified, as a military location that had just initiated a hostile campaign in a hitherto peaceable area of land, with specific designs to ruin their holy places, and unleash Penal troopers upon the civilian populace. I don’t actually think you can get more justified than that.
Teldrassil however?
No, not Justified at all. Not even defending that. It was, and is still in my characters mind, the moment where he is going “Can I belong to this Horde, and still hug my children at night and pretend I am a good man”

Are you going with Garrosh ignored the Bloodhoof plight, but Jaina acknowledged it?

I think that is where you’re going. In which case, yes. Garrosh was a Douche, Jaina well she’s also a Douche, but a less obvious one, depending on who is writing her.

Right, let me just put this in context for you, as you seem to have difficulties getting the idea.

Assume you’re British, it doesn’t matter, you could be any nation, but I am British, so I can use metaphors that make sense.

There is a knock at your front door.
You’ve got a couple of mates round, but yeah, you open the front door.
There is Boris Johnson, and he pulls a pistol and shoots your mates dead.

He can’t do this? That’s not legal!

And then you hear the Tory party basically rounding people up, chucking them in vans and driving them off. This isn’t real, this can’t happen, Some people resist, and Tory supporters start shooting them! People are actually being executed, there is blood on the streets. Nobody speaks up, everyone is too scared. You see a person literally knifing an old guy to death, laughing and chuckling as the old guy screams out “I lived here my whole life! Why!”

That’s your purge of Dalaran.

And That’s why people don’t like Jaina.

She could have stopped it. She didn’t.

She Ordered it.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty Sure, Jaina went Ballistic. Not Aethas. I mean he basically stood there, and truthfully said "I had nothing to do with it"Now if he had said “I knew nothing about it” He’d have been lying…

I have no idea what that means, can you…elaborate, or explain, as we used to say.

I am sorry you find words intimidating. Many people do. You can actually get over it as a condition, you just build up to it essentially, Know the best one for that?

Herman Melville’s ‘Moby Dick’ It is so full of description, and at times bizarre flights of fantasy where for whole chapters he will go off on one, and you’re like "Are you talking about a Whale Herman? Or like…God?

But yeah, if you’re one of those people and it is prevalent with Echo Boomers, as Emoji’s become king, then try reading longer books. In fact I just thought of the perfect one. Not ‘Moby Dick’ not ‘War and Peace’ Read ‘Catch 22’ I just realised, its perfect to cure people of anxiety about lots of words…Its a whole story, and it is, but it is written in such a way, that it’s -not- a story? Every Chapter is a short story Sure, they add together, but every chapter is a short story. Read it that way, might help you get over the Words thing.

You kind of just described Han Solo.

Yep, She was. She was the Head of the Council of Six. That is -exactly- her job. I mean, to the letter. That is totally her job.

You know she did this…ermm, thing where she gave items to the Alliance and broke Kirin Tor neutrality, right? Or the bit when she got the Kirin Tor to fight for the Alliance against the Horde, thereby breaching their neutrality? You remember that bit, right? It was quite a …a major thing in ‘Tides of War’ Ironically, Aethas Sunreaver actually backed her. Turns out she is a massively ungrateful cowbag.(A description a female player of WoW cited)

So is it two or four, or five, I’m never sure now.

Also, The Dalaran Neutrality ship had already sailed, thanks to…ooh…Jaina.

You what?

You actually think that was reasonable

Let me put this in context.

She rocked up, with no actual legal power, may I remind you, She is the head of a council that he is part of! She rocks up with a few squaddies, and Kills people. There’s no explanation, no nothing, She walks in and commits two acts of murder, then two more (Yes it was four, you jebends).

Only-THEN- does she start to explain why.

Can we just go back there, She kicks the door in, and shoots four people around you dead, then starts screaming at you, like this is all your fault.

That’s Jaina.

Is that a SANE PERSON?

I mean as Aethas you have a -vague- idea what she could be annoyed about, but she has just KICKED THE DOORS IN AND WALKED IN SHOOTING AND KILLED THE FOUR PEOPLE AROUND YOU!

At what point are you supposed to be calm and collected? I mean…even if you expected it, you’re not going to submit to the will of a person who has just -Murdered- people whose blood hasn’t even dried from the splashes on your face yet.

Fun Fact also.

Not her House.

She’s from Kul Tiras. Know where Aethas is from?

Yeah.

One of them can call it home, the other can not.

Dalaran is more Aethas’ home, than it is Jaina’s, so frankly, she should shut her yap.

Read Books.
That isn’t how it works at all

That is not how it works.

Are you even old enough to remember the ‘Carebears’ I mean, I remembered a time before them, and damned well hated them, but is that still a cultural reference?

I think that is not the example you were gunning for. I mean quite famously, one (Not even!) Traitor has just been executed by Sylvanas’ ridiculous gigolo, and Baine has just been arrested, as presumably too dangerous to execute, but we’ll arrest him anyway.

I’m really not sure you were going for real life examples, because, oh man, here come some.

Oh You did not…Right, Really here come some…factors…

Your ‘go to’ response is not “Kill 'em All”

That has never been the immediate action. Only the absolute most draconian of nations have that as their response, and with very good reason.

Its Mental.

It is giving you no scale of punishment. It is basically saying, that you have a binary system, where you either get a slap on the wrist and a chuck on the cheek “Oh you scamp, you” Or you get executed.

At what point is that crime and realistic punishment? That is literally setting a precedent with two outcomes. Yes. Nations have done that historically. Yes. Those Nations are now rightly reviled and a lesson from history as to how -not- to do things. I’ll give you a clue, one was defeated in 1945, and the other collapsed under internal pressures in 1991 however had stopped doing it before then.

You don’t do that. Do you know what such an absolute binary system of punishment does? (and it does do this). It encourages the worst excesses. “I was going to mug this guy and nick his wallet, but, heck, if the punishment for mugging is the same as for murder, I might as well murder him, and make it impossible for him to identify me”

There are scales of betrayal, and scales of punishment for them. It isn’t a ‘One size fits all’

You ever hear of the ‘Eagle Squadrons’? Traitors. Every man jack of them, traitors. Also incredibly brave, principled young men who firmly believed in the right course of action, even if their nation as a whole had not taken a stand. Technically? Traitors. Did…they get shot?

That would also be the legal thing that Jaina should have done, as the head, of the Council of Six.

Just going to remind you here, that Jaina has no idea that Aethas knows about this, when it happens. Her Go-to response, Is to kill some people, put him in the slammer, set loose a Paramilitary organisation, and wander the streets serenely as the murder takes place.

That’s what she does. She doesn’t even ask questions, she kicks in the door and starts shooting, only later giving narrative.
Aethas is making a very good point “Hang on, this is my home too” In fact he should have said “Hang on, this is my home, it isn’t your home of birth, get back to your Island…Oh you can’t…”

Either way, it was Krystallnacht. You can’t defend the Purge without saying that similar real life situations were OK, and most Alliance fans don’t like that, and rightly so, because it is a horrible scenario, because…well, it is a horrible situation. Its like…Armed paramilitaries with no legal authority beating the crap out of civilians and just killing others because they’re going “Hang on, this is my house, you can’t just chuck me out” Oh, I forgot to mention that it is racially motivated.

Can we tick any more boxes before even the most die -hard team blue poster goes “You know what, That was a douche move”

She doesn’t. She’s a Tyrant. She is an absolute malevolent ruler, with no redeeming features, and this means the Alliance should be…why?

Stop thinking that things are so utterly black and white, they -aren’t-

Sylvanas is a horrible person, like, massively horrible. I don’t think anyone is actually defending her, I think we all agree, she is a horrible, awful person.

How did Sylvanas handle ‘Betrayal’ better than Jaina?

She didn’t, they were both poorly written incompetents who should never have been in a position of power in the first place!

She was terrible, they both were.

Saying "What about X " doesn’t make Y better.

maybe I’m overthinking it.


(Zarao) #54

I was being sarcastic.

And I felt like pointing how ironic it is, to have automatic reprisal in the form of instant death penalty, as a logical reaction regarding “treason”, but still have across the forums a heated (and recurrent) proclamation regarding the immorality of Baines imprisonment for his actions.
Coming from the same guys.


(Tyrandé) #55

I choose violence !!!


(Elyssarain) #56

No, you choose to be a good housewife to Malfurion and become huggy buddies with the Horde. You got your vengeance after all, so sayeth Blizzard!


(Northgrave) #57

That would be high elves, the race that did the purge on the behalf of the Alliance. Blood elves are the junkie version of them and hardly build anything.

World of WarCraft.

The fact that Azeroth is so full of knife-ears explains why it’s so… turbulent. Humans, Dwarves and Gnomes are too good for that planet.

Not Sylvanas. The Horde.

Yeah, surely no one knows that Ambermill was slaughtered. Oh, and who could have attacked the mages at the crater. The world may never know.

Nothing to apologize for, we didn’t murder them. Just removed them to another plane of existence. And it was not based on their race, blood elf, tauren or orc, all got the same treatment.

That’s why a lot of them went to help us fight the real enemy on the Isle of Thunder. Got it.


(Anouk) #58

Another boring Boomer rant?
Brigitte you are on fire :heart:

Don’t take it too personal when I don’t read it tho, I’ve far better things to do :wink:

Keep up the textwalls, I heard somewhere that regular writing can prevent alzheimer’s and other nasty stuff that comes with age!


#60

Responds to comment about people huffing angrily about Purge of Dalaran by huffing angrily about Purge of Dalaran. Did you play through the Baine rescue mission? Even Blizzard thinks the Sunreavers are the bad guys. As they should.

No, not really.

Ah, because Jaina, a Kul Tiran exile, did some bad things, that justifies the Horde and Zandalari murdering everal Kul Tiran anglers. Got it. You have a sound, reasonable moral compass right there. People should definetly take you seriously.

You employ the same standard of evidence as always I see. How about telling me my age while at it?

Google “sarcasm”. I know boomers have trouble grasping such concepts.


(Blunderhoof) #61

I honestly think you’re interpretting that wrong. And no, they shouldn’t.


(Zarao) #62

Right, let’s just excuse bad/forced writing whilst complaining of some other bad/forced narrative.

Why don’t you follow your same advice and suck it up about Varian calling even what happened in Cataclysm? That means no more complaints about “genocide”, “human experimentation”, and all that usual drivel.
And while you are at it, do the same with Teldrassil. Zuldazar was its payback. Period. Blizzards words.

Go full backwards and accept the Word of God…but this time for everything. Not only the bits you prefer.