Why peace is not an option

[Sereluna-silvermoon]

Why don’t you follow your same advice and suck it up about Varian calling even what happened in Cataclysm? That means no more complaints about “genocide”, “human experimentation”, and all that usual drivel.
And while you are at it, do the same with Teldrassil. Zuldazar was its payback. Period. Blizzards words.

What are you talking about?

[Zarao-colinas-pardas (Zarao)]

What are you talking about?

That you grasping at Blizzards lazy or bad writing as an excuse to dismiss what obviously should be seen as a narrative travesty, isn’t some handy card to play when it’s convenient.

Wanna take that route? Ok.
Then you should start also shutting it with all those other issues Blizzard felt like handwaving with equal ease.
Including most of Cataclysm, and most recently, Teldrassil.

Wanna play that card? The point of this whole thread is mute. All of it was forgiven/hand waved/compensated down the line by several kinds of similar plots.

You don’t like it?. Follow your own advice: Suck it up with what Blizzard “signals”.

[Sereluna-silvermoon]

That you grasping at Blizzards lazy or bad writing as an excuse to dismiss what obviously should be seen as a narrative travesty, isn’t some handy card to play when it’s convenient.

Yes it is. And I have not done so anyway, thus your point is mute.

Wanna take that route? Ok.
Then you should start also shutting it with all those other issues Blizzard felt like handwaving with equal ease.
Including most of Cataclysm, and most recently, Teldrassil.

Yeah no, not going to do that.

Wanna play that card? The point of this whole thread is mute. All of it was forgiven/hand waved/compensated down the line by several kinds of similar plots.

When did I ever talk about anything being forgiven? You are just making up point I never brought up. Again: what are you talking about?

You don’t like it?. Follow your own advice: Suck it up with what Blizzard “signals”.

When did I ever tell anyone to “suck it up”?

[Araphant-defias-brotherhood (Araphant)]

I think yah should all chill.

[Sereluna-silvermoon]

No, do not tell them to stop. This is fun.

[Zarao-colinas-pardas (Zarao)]

Yes it is. And I have not done so anyway

No? Really?:

Even Blizzard thinks the Sunreavers are the bad guys.

Again, wanna take the easy route of relying on bad writing? Fine.
Blizzard also thinks that the Alliance should forgive and excuse the Hordes aggression throughout Cataclysm.
Blizzard also thinks that the Alliance can’t demand any kind of compensation or justice for Teldrassil, because they had the raid of Zuldazar.
Blizzard also thinks that the “experimentation”, “torture”, blighting across Gilneas, Southshore, and all those unsavoury things, are, best case scenario, to be blamed on either Garrosh or Sylvanas. Them alone.

And most importantly, Blizzard thinks that no matter what any Horde character does to the Alliance in this war, be that razing Brennadam to the ground, using Harrington’s house as a bullseye for Azerite canyons, or whatever stuff writers come up with…you are going to pardon it, deal with it, and maybe kiss Thralls feet when he and Saurfang save the Alliance from mean Ol’ Sylvanas.

In short, want to take the route of the Word of God? Ok. But don’t try and nitpick when it’s convenient for you to call it forth.

Use it consistently, and you lose whatever ground you are grasping at with threads like these.

[Iambaine-darkmoon-faire]

I think yah should all chill.

You funny.

[Araphant-defias-brotherhood (Araphant)]

Unlike you.

[Iambaine-darkmoon-faire]

Gasps A human Paladin with a sense of humour?! The stars must have aligned!

Alas, that you are not in my target demographic. I grew tired of Paladin memes a little while ago. That Liadrin though…

No, do not tell them to stop. This is fun.

[Sereluna-silvermoon]

Again, wanna take the easy route of relying on bad writing? Fine.

No… Where was there any bad writing? Where do you get this from.

Blizzard also thinks that the Alliance should forgive and excuse the Hordes aggression throughout Cataclysm.
Blizzard also thinks that the Alliance can’t demand any kind of compensation or justice for Teldrassil, because they had the raid of Zuldazar.
Blizzard also thinks that the “experimentation”, “torture”, blighting across Gilneas, Southshore, and all those unsavoury things, are, best case scenario, to be blamed on either Garrosh or Sylvanas. Them alone .

Provide citations for all of this.

And most importantly, Blizzard thinks that no matter what any Horde character does to the Alliance in this war, be that razing Brennadam to the ground, using Harrington’s house as a bullseye for Azerite canyons, or whatever stuff writers come up with…you are going to pardon it, deal with it, and maybe kiss Thralls feet when he and Saurfang save the Alliance from mean Ol’ Sylvanas.

Oh wait, gave you to much credit. I see that all of this is just going on inside your head. Nurse, he is getting worse!

In short, want to take the route of the Word of God? Ok. But don’t try and nitpick when it’s convenient for you to call it forth.

Again, all this occured in your head.

Use it consistently, and you lose whatever ground you are grasping at with threads like these.

Why are you warning me of this, when I have done no such thing?

Sir, are you having conversations with the voices in your head and letting it spill into reality again?

And I noticed you never provided a citation of me saying people had to “suck it up”, so I guess that was another lie.

[Zarao-colinas-pardas (Zarao)]

@Sereluna-silvermoon

Provide citations for all of this.

Really??
How many people were held accountable for what happened throughout Cataclysm?
How many were trialed for it?

Regarding Teldrassil, there was a literal interview.

Need more sourcing?
Blizzard does seem to want you to quit whining about…what? 80%? 90% of this threads premise?

@Sereluna-silvermoon

Where was there any bad writing? Where do you get this from.

Oh? “Your complaints aren’t valid because Blizzard villainised this character to show you how wrong you are”.

@Sereluna-silvermoon

Again, all this occured in your head.

- YouTube

Lor'themar and Jaina Dialogue on Factions Following the Eternal Palace Finale

Yeah. Sure.

[Sereluna-silvermoon]

Really??
How many people were held accountable for what happened throughout Cataclysm?
How many were trialed for it?

You are refusing to provide citations and trying to shift the burden of proof onto me. Not a good look hon.

Regarding Teldrassil, there was a literal interview.

Where?

Need more sourcing?

More would imply you had already given a source, which you have not. Lazy bum.

Blizzard does seem to want you to quit whining about…what? 80%? 90% of this threads premise?

No, that is you.

Oh? “Your complaints aren’t valid because Blizzard villainised this character to show you how wrong you are”.

What are you talking about?! Are you legit insane? Where do these random quotes from other conversations pop out from?

Yeah. Sure.

Was there a point there, or just another one of your crazy, empty rants?

How many posts have you made so far? You have yet to give even an inkling what made you go on this hissy fit, so let me ask again: What are you talking about?

[Zarao-colinas-pardas (Zarao)]

You are refusing to provide citations and trying to shift the burden of proof onto me.

No. I just didn’t find necessary to quote an entire book called “War Crimes” to prove that Blizzards aim was for the Alliance to use Garrosh as a literal scapegoat for all that went wrong in Cataclysm and be done with the ranting.
Want to know more? You can read the book.

Where?

Yeah, sorry, but won’t expand on what at this point is common knowledge. You can look it up if you wish.
Keywords being “Night elves had vengeance for Teldrassil with the raid of Dazar’alor”.

Cba to browse whats been a recurrent and trending topic for months, for stupidity’s sake. Feigned or otherwise.
(Same for the rest).

[Sereluna-silvermoon]

No. I just didn’t find necessary to quote an entire book called “War Crimes” to prove that Blizzards aim was for the Alliance to use Garrosh as a literal scapegoat for all that went wrong in Cataclysm and be done with the ranting.
Want to know more? You can read the book.

Now it is clear that you are crazy. Nothing you said there was of any relevance to my question. I never even mentioned Garrosh or any scapegoats for war crimes. You are not even coherent, you just write down the first thing that comes to mind, regardless of if it makes sense.

Yeah, sorry, but won’t expand on what at this point is common knowledge. You can look it up if you wish.
Keywords being “Night elves had vengeance for Teldrassil with the raid of Dazar’alor”.

See, the problem, as illustrated above, is that you regularly lie, make things up, and struggle to read things coherently. I do not trust you when you claim there is an interview stating those things, because I know you like to make things up when it is convenient, and I am not going to go on a wild goose chase to find something that likely does not exist, and even if it does, almost assuredly contains none of what you claim it does. You have not earned the right to have people believe you at face value.

How about you do the bare minimum and provide a citation for your claims, instead of hiding behind your laziness? That is all I ask, and you pretend like I am asking you to post an entire book. I ask for a single link, that is it. Stop being so damn sensitive.

So, you are not going to explain why you started whining to me? You just did it for the sake of whining, am I to take it? Guess nothing more can be expected from Sylvanas’ #2 bootlicker.

[Zarao-colinas-pardas (Zarao)]

I never even mentioned Garrosh or any scapegoats for war crimes.

No? What’s this?:

Provide citations for all of this.

Why did you ask of me to expand on it then?

See, the problem, as illustrated above, is that you regularly lie, make things up, and struggle to read things coherently

Aaah…the ad hominem. When no longer can you hide behind a facade of stupidity or ignorance and instead try and dodge the bullet with a whataboutism.

Yeah, this is done.
Take your hypocrisy elsewhere.

Want to complain about how you’d like the narrative to go? Then don’t bring lazy or bad writing to the table as foundation for your responses.
It might undermine whatever basis you have.

Peace out.

[Sereluna-silvermoon]

No? What’s this?:

That is two citations that have nothing to do with Garrosh or scapegoats. Which any literate and non-crazy person would have seen. You did a good job pointing it out buddy.

Why did you ask of me to expand on it then?

Because I wanted you to prove your assertions? No jump topic to Garrosh and scapegoating.

Aaah…the ad hominem. When no longer can you hide behind a facade of stupidity or ignorance and instead try and dodge the bullet with a whataboutism.

Yeah, this is done.
Take your hypocrisy elsewhere.

You just said a lot of words you thought sounded smart and jumbled them together in a incoherent and irrelevant mess.

Ad hominem arguments are valid when the argument is about the person in question’s character. There was no whataboutism involved, you do not seem to know what that means (shocker!), and there was no hypocrisy involved.

What happened was that you got angry over nothing, started making wild, unsubstantial claims about what is going on in Blizzard’s minds, failed to provide citations, realized you had made a fool of yourself, and tried to save face by acting like a moron and just barraging me with irrelevant anecdotes. Very clever. And I mean that sincerely. For you, this was very advanced.

Want to complain about how you’d like the narrative to go? Then don’t bring lazy or bad writing to the table as foundation for your responses.
It might undermine whatever basis you have.

Ok…? I have never done this, and had no plans to, so why are you sayin…oh right, distracting people from the fact that you have no citations by just spouting random accusations.

Peace out.

Yeah, that is kind of the topic of the thread.

[Leíá-argent-dawn (Leíá)]

You just said a lot of words you thought sounded smart and jumbled them together in a incoherent and irrelevant mess.

Thats Zarao for you.

[Iambaine-darkmoon-faire]

Thats Zarao for you.

Fear not! I am considered worse than Zarao and a signature was offered with that declaration. A most grievous insult to almost any sentient.

[Zarao-colinas-pardas (Zarao)]

You just said a lot of words you thought sounded smart and jumbled them together in a incoherent and irrelevant mess.

Sure mate. Sure.
What lost you exactly? Ad hominem or whataboutism?

Want me to link the definitions and point at the phrases you said that exemplify such? Sure you do. Here:

1.)
Upon facing the book title I had to spell out in order to tear down the stupidity facade:

See, the problem, as illustrated above, is that you regularly lie

Definition for ‘Ad Hominem’:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Typically refers to a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself

Act stupid. Insist on a source. Is provided with such source…and tries to deter it by going on a tangent.

2.)

Let’s take a look at ‘Whataboutism’ implies:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
Attempts to discredit an opponent’s position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument

Hmmm…
Again, going on a tangent that shifts your postion and moves the goal posts from “Provide me a source”, to some, rather laughable, judgemental position about the poster.

Are these terms incompatible? Doesn’t seem so.

————-

Regarding the rest, and given your history, I doubt it makes much difference to further elaborate on any substantial or relevant lore note. But your post is right there for anyone to read.
You went from wanting proof regarding Blizzard focusing all blame regarding Cataclysm on a single character, to dismissing or acting surprised (to the point you try and argue it’s unrelated info ) when someone points out the epitome of scapegoating that is the War Crimes novel.

God, this bit was just to tempting to reply
Last time, I swear.

Ps:

Thats Zarao for you.

Yeah, don’t want to delve much on what a pointless comment with close to zero discussion value, says about the one posting it.

[Brigante-argent-dawn (Brigante)]

I was being sarcastic.

And I felt like pointing how ironic it is, to have automatic reprisal in the form of instant death penalty, as a logical reaction regarding “treason”, but still have across the forums a heated (and recurrent) proclamation regarding the immorality of Baines imprisonment for his actions.
Coming from the same guys.

Then I apologise, and as stated, I agree wholeheartedly that having a ‘go-to’ response of Execution is ridiculous.

That would be high elves, the race that did the purge on the behalf of the Alliance. Blood elves are the junkie version of them and hardly build anything.

No. That would be the population of Quel’thalas. 90% of the remnants now call themselves…?

World of WarCraft.

In which case, you’re really not. ‘Knife-ear’ is a term from a different video game franchise. I mean that -literally(In the correct sense of the word) is the case.

The fact that Azeroth is so full of knife-ears explains why it’s so… turbulent. Humans, Dwarves and Gnomes are too good for that planet.

I’ll agree with you on Gnomes, they pretty much are the only ‘Good Guys’ Alright, not Sicco Thermaplugg, he was a douche, The rest of them? Good Guys, want to argue, fight me in the pub carpark.

Not Sylvanas. The Horde.

Lets take this piece at a time.

Sylvanas? Baddie?
Well yes, of course she is, she does horrible things to people, she does horrible things to her own people. SHe’s just horrible. She makes zero sense as Warchief but eh, we gotta have an evil Warchief given that people complained that Thrall was actually reasonable and nice.

Saurfang: Evil? That’s trickier. Was he Evil? I’d say so, yeah. -Is- he Evil? No. Not really. He did some horrible things in his youth, things he regrets, loathes, and regards himself as shameful and abhorrent. He’s a repentant sinner.20 year old Saurfang was a douche, 60 year old Saurfang has an incredibly well adjusted moral compass.

Rok’han: We have no idea. We genuinely don’t, We don’t know if he is a good person, or a bad person, we’ve got nothing to work with, so I’m not going to pretend either way, that we do.

Baine: He is a good guy. I don’t -care- how much some Horde Fans whinge about him betraying the Horde, he hasn’t actually betrayed the core values of the Horde. Baine is a good person. He’s Anduin, with horns and hooves. In fact, he is exactly that! HIs father was ruler, he was unexpectedly cast into this position, and he is trying to just be a good person.

Sylvanas we’ve covered. Eeech. She Bad.

Lor’themar Theron: He’s…not actually a bad guy? I mean he is a war hero of his people, he was never part of Anasterian pulling out of the Alliance, He seems to really care about his people, and want the best for them, he even goes to his enemies and says “You know what? Sunwell is Fixed, you can come home” He even talks to -JAINA ThemostinsanepersoninAzeroth.ever. He’s like “Look, Varian, Shiz got a bit mad, but we can talk, lets have a chat about this idea” “OMG JAINA DID WHAT!”

Essentially the subplot of MoP

So, Jastor Gallywix.

Is he Evil?

This is the trickiest.

He’s not actually evil. No, really, hear me out here.

He’s not ‘Evil’. He is venal, self-serving, hyper-capitalist, selfish. These are all bad qualities in a person, But he’s not actually Evil. I mean I hate the character, I hate him, but he’s not Evil. Know why?

Because he can know Love. He has an object of his romantic affections, that every year he sends a present to, in the hope she will return said affections. Know what she sends back? A Letter Bomb.

He’s not Evil. He’s a horrible person! Utterly Horrible, He is not Nice at all, but he isn’t actually Evil. I mean he is scum, I’m not arguing that for a second, but he is just scum, not evil scum, if that makes sense.

Ji Firepaw:
C’mon, seriously? He’s just enthusiastic, he’s not Evil!

Mayla Highmountain: She’s not Evil!

Thalyssra: She’s not Evil. They’re both like ‘X makes sense given what I know, lets go with X’ That’s not Evil.

Yeah, surely no one knows that Ambermill was slaughtered.

They were kind of all turned into Forsaken. I’m not sure they would be running off and telling tales.

Oh, and who could have attacked the mages at the crater. The world may never know.

Fun Fact, They attack you. Gotta love that Kirin Tor Neutrality, right?

Nothing to apologize for, we didn’t murder them. Just removed them to another plane of existence. And it was not based on their race, blood elf, tauren or orc, all got the same treatment.

Nothing to apologize for, we didn’t murder them. Just removed them to another plane of existence. And it was not based on their race, blood elf, tauren or orc, all got the same treatment.

No, I’m…pretty sure, by Blizzard’s own words, that the Alliance did kill the initial ambassadors from the Forsaken. Not Teleport, just outright Kill. I’m also pretty certain they invaded the Neutral nation of Quel’thalas.

That’s why a lot of them went to help us fight the real enemy on the Isle of Thunder. Got it.

No, that is why -None- of them did it. That…just didn’t happen. Not a single one of those scared Alliance aligned civilians (Civilians- Not War Criminals) later takes part on the Isle of Thunder. That just does not Happen. Try again.

Another boring Boomer rant?

You know you are being a stereotype yourself? The funny thing, You’re trying to stereotype me to a demographic I don’t belong to, whereas I am getting the distinct impression you are in fact a Boomer…Given the years of birth.

Another boring Boomer rant?

Boring? Possibly. Boomer? Get it right E-Boomer. It’s X’er if you actually want to go for insults. Rant? Dear Gods above and below, you think -that- was a Rant, I’d say where have you lived for the last few decades but I think that is becoming rather rapidly apparent!

Brigitte you are on fire

We’ll leave aside the fact you gave me a female name, I don’t take offence at that, and thank you for the notice that I am currently flammable I’m not wild about the idea of being combustible but will take that under advisement.

Keep up the textwalls, I heard somewhere that regular writing can prevent alzheimer’s and other nasty stuff that comes with age!

Yes, I read that also, I’m just a little too young for Alzheimers to be a likelihood, being Gen X, not either type of Boomer, though in fairness, Gen Y Boomers are too young for Alzheimers to be a likely occasion either. I am well aware, sadly, of the vicissitudes that age can bring upon a person, thankfully I have avoided being overweight, and male pattern baldness, So I am pretty good with that. Also, I’m not writing so much, I’m actually recording Voice Acting work, It is similar, but different.

Responds to comment about people huffing angrily about Purge of Dalaran by huffing angrily about Purge of Dalaran. Did you play through the Baine rescue mission? Even Blizzard thinks the Sunreavers are the bad guys. As they should.

Yes I did. Are we stereotyping a species by the actions of one member of that species? That’s dangerous territory for someone playing Alliance.

No, not really.

As a Body Politic? No, not really. The Horde as a body politic is not especially justified. Individual Species, yes, a body politic? No.
You seem to think I am trying to justify the Horde as a body politic, in its actions? I am not, and have never tried to do so. The Horde is pretty damned nasty and grim. That’s actually why I play Horde, to RP as the ‘Good Guy working for an Evil Cause’ Its a concept that fascinates me. It is Oskar Schindler, it is Adolf Galland, Ernst Udet, Manfred von Richthofen. Its being the -BAD- guy, who is actually a decent and nice person, but works for a horrible organisation. The Horde is -BAD- I am not questioning that. I’m saying that sometimes the Alliance is Bad. That happens too…

Ah, because Jaina, a Kul Tiran exile, did some bad things, that justifies the Horde and Zandalari murdering everal Kul Tiran anglers. Got it. You have a sound, reasonable moral compass right there. People should definetly take you seriously.

I think ‘Genocide’ is a little bit more than ‘some bad things’ but fair enough.
I also like to think that my moral compass is pretty well balanced, as it happens. I do not break the law (OK, occasionally I will jump on the train for a three minute train journey without paying) , but I do not shoplift, steal, commit acts of bodily harm, or indeed any sort of indignity towards another person. I don’t drive, because I am Epileptic and if I had a seizure whilst driving, I could kill people by accident. I don’t do anything that could, by action, or inaction, harm another person. Feck, I’m practically living by Asimov’s ‘Three rules of Robotics’

I’d say my Moral Compass is actually a lot more balanced than many peoples.

You employ the same standard of evidence as always I see. How about telling me my age while at it?

I can -guess-, given your style of debate. I’m going with between 18 and 26. (You don’t have to answer, though I am curious as to whether I was right within those parameters)

Google “sarcasm”. I know boomers have trouble grasping such concepts.

Clearly not as much as Echo-Boomers have with reading comprehension.
Waves flag
The One Generation still alive that -can’t- be classified as a Boomer! I mean, sure, there are probably some Pre-Boomers left alive, (though given that my mother’s generation are the original Boomers this is…without wishing ill upon my parent still alive, in their late 60’s to 90’s, highly unlikely! ) and obviously the Kids of the Echo-Boomers (Or Millennials) are not Boomers, Not unless we re-categorise things again, (Apparently they are Generation Z, but given they are not even adult yet, nobody has really kind of categorised them)

Anyway, think you’ll find, that what you mistakenly classify as ‘Boomers’ (and ironically miss the point by picking the only demographic that such a term does not apply to) are -exactly- the demographic that made sarcasm a form of public comedy.

I don’t need to google ‘sarcasm’. I grew up with it. My Generation refined it, and made massive money out of selling it to both sets of Boomers. I’m OK with Sarcasm to be honest, I’d give you examples of the comedians, of the TV Shows, of pretty much everything But it would be a cultural examination of “Dad punched me in the face, whilst my son Shivved me in the back!”

Why not just “Every Generation thinks they had it harder?”

Monty Python? Generation X, mate.
Terminator? Generation X
Rocky Horror Picture Show? Generation X
Reeves and Mortimer? Generation X
Ben Elton? Stephen Fry, Hugh Laurie, Rob Newman and David Baddiel? The Height of the performance era of Morecambe and Wise?

Are you -seriously- trying to tell me what Sarcasm is?

I mean Ironically, that -could- be seen as Sarcasm…

Essentially I think the problem here, is that most people apart from the most deluded are like “The Horde is Bad” “Yes, They’re Bad! I play Alliance, and I am telling you they are bad!” “Yeah, I …get that, the Horde is pretty bad” “NO! That is not enough! I need you to tell me the Horde is Evil!” “Well, that’s not really going to happen, I think they are bad, and have some incredibly Evil people in the organisation, but…” “NO! I need you to say the Horde is Evil!” “Alright, lets explain why some of the actions of -both- sides could be viewed as Evil?” “NO! The Horde is Evil!” “Right, no, wait up. Do we think that killing a lot of civilians is morally shaky?” “OH I SEE! Its all about Taurajo or Dalaran, as if the Horde has never done anything wrong!”
“No, it…it really isn’t? No one is saying the Horde has done no wrong, It’s done plenty of wrong, now if you’ll just…”
“NO! The Horde is Evil! Say it!”
“Right. Whew. OK, Let’s…right, Lets just get this clear. Are you saying, that Taurajo, which is pretty much the Trail of Tears, and Dalaran, that is pretty much Krystallnacht are OK?”
“THE HORDE IS EVIL!”
“Right yes, we’ve covered this, like, a lot, like on a bi-weekly basis, but are you saying that Taurajo and-”
“The Horde is Evil, you people always go on about Taurajo!”
“Right, yes, because it was a pretty Evil act echoed by one in our own history”
“NO! THe Horde is Evil! Not the Alliance”
“Right, OK, it is possible, for both things to do nasty things, yeah? We have seen that a lot in history”
“NO! Only the Horde is Evil!”

“Right, just let me clarify here, are we going anywhere other than ‘The Horde is Evil?’”

“But the Horde -IS EVIL-”

“Right, OK…Lets move swiftly on to a sensible discussion, before we revisit this nonsense next Friday.”