Why the First Ones are not the Titans

Community General Discussion
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There are many nods to the two groups being completely different, and basically the only argument some “thinkers” have about the First Ones being the Titans is that “order is imposed on the Shadowlands with the previous ruler being chained (the Jailer)”.

While the Titans did, in fact, change the status quo in places like Azeroth by imprisoning the previous masters of the planet (the Old Gods), we must take some things into consideration:

  1. They chained/imprisoned the Old Gods because they could not kill them, not because they did not want to (9.1 spoiler here, the Primus expressed hope that his fallen brother would attone for his sins).
  2. Imprisoning or killing someone to change the status quo is what everyone would do, not just the Titans. Plus the Light also forges/uses chains.
  3. Just because there is “order” with this robotic Arbiter, as her Honored Voice states, that doesn’t mean there was not some form of order before.
  4. The existence of order somewhere doesn’t mean that Order (capital “O”) has intervened there. The Light also has some form of order within its ranks and forms, while the Void doesn’t. What? Did the Titans invade the Light, or did the Legion impose disorder upon the Void?

Beside these things surrounding the Jailer’s imprisonment and a change upon the Shadowlands, there are these visible -intentionally visible- differences between the First Ones and the Titans:

  1. When we escape the Maw at the start of the expansion, Anduin states in the quest text that the shapes and inscriptions on the Waystone to Oribos seem unrecognizable to him, and made by a differend hand than that of the Titans, with Anduin claiming he has studied the Titans’ works/culture.
  2. When you zoomed out Azeroth in the in-game map before the Shadowlands expansion, you would see Aman’thul shrouding Azeroth with a protective veil of clouds, as if hiding the horrors of the Great Dark Beyond from its denizens. After the release of Shadowlands, Aman’thul and Sargeras are gone, the veil of clouds is lifted from Azeroth, and on the edges of the paper/map you can see Oribos-like markings.
  3. The architecture of Oribos resembles Ny’alotha more than any Titan building. It is just original, get over it.
  4. On the decorations of Oribos as well as on Ardenweald’s eternal charge, we can see that the First Ones value the “Cycle” between life and death. The Titans do not value the cycle- in fact they break it (see Odyn’s interventions on the dead Vrykul and keep in mind Eonar’s title: “the Life-Binder”).
  5. If the Titans had ordered the Shadowlands, why wouldn’t they inform their keepers like Odyn about what happens when mortals die? Odyn had to make a deal with an unknown-to-him being to see what is going on.
  6. In the fabled book “Enemy Infiltration- Preface”, which is a report written to Denathrius by his agents and children, the Dreadlords, the Unseen Guests report on how to defeat the Titans, among other cosmic rivals. This shows that the Titans are not the First Ones, since we know that the Eternal Ones, like Denathrius, know the First Ones and are their creations/children. That being said, Denathrius would not seek to kill the First Ones, nor could he, being much weaker, and the First Ones in turn would not be so blind, arrogant, and foolish to be fractured so easily.
  7. It has been stated in Blizzard interviews that the First Ones are connected to “various pantheons” and are the closest to a “true deity in Warcraft”.

And besides all the obvious evidence, it would be underwhelming and boring for the First Ones to turn out being the “good ol’ Titans” (that aren’t much strong, really).

I hope some particular speculators on YouTube keep these in mind, because, at its current state, Blizzard may completely ruin its own story for the sake of fan-service. An example of Blizzard’s risky decisions is the path they are taking with Elune in 9.1 (spoilers). Now, the Elune affair is still concealed in mystery and there is still some space to “save it”, but you just never know.

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They can absolutely kill the Old Gods, with ease.
But doing so put Azeroth at risk, so they choose not to.
This has been known for a long time, it’s not a 9.1 spoiler unless you’re saying they’re retconning stuff?

They’re larger than planets and destroy them with ease.

We have the Titans and the unexplored Void Lords. That covers good and bad. I think it would be weird to introduce an even higher, or equal being before fully exploring the current dynamics.

I think they’re Titan-related.

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The afterlife…? Not exactly the same as death, as that implies a finite existence.

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So; ripping Y’shaarj’s heart out didn’t kill it…?
It split the main Azerothian landmass into four pieces, in the process…

Based on that “Ooops”, they decided to imprison the other 3, instead of killing them.

Apologies to @Altash… I quoted from what you quoted, so that’s why you got @'d.

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I have lots of guesses and loose brain thoughts on The First Ones, but I think the story is still at a stage where the possibilities are impossible to narrow down. The narrative can sort of work its way toward any idea imaginable.

One thought is that Blizzard are taking cues from the Marvel Cinematic Universe and adding layers to the Warcraft universe as we go through it.
Marvel starts with the superheroes dealing with Earth problems, then they go into space and deal with space problems and learn about alien races and the greater cosmos. And then they start introducing the concepts of Eternals and Celestials and such.
And it feels as if Blizzard are doing something similar. And I’m inclined to say that the Cosmology map is something Blizzard will build on – not something they’ll limit themselves to. So it might well be that The First Ones are a layer beyond what we currently know of, and beyond that there might be a speculated watchmaker or such.

Another thought is that Blizzard have quite a lot of lore overlap between its IPs, whether intentional or not. And when WoW starts talking about cycles I can’t help think of similarities to the Xel’naga in StarCraft. And the whole creation and balance lore vibes a lot with Trag’Oul in Diablo.

There’s also the idea that The Titans could be more than those we know of. I mean, The Titan Pantheon seem to revolve around the arcane, but it’s definitely not all the Titans that fit within that mold. Argus and Eonar sort of indicate that Titans can be of different cosmic forces than arcane.

And then there’s the mythological parallel, because Blizzard likes to find inspiration in that.
And just like Cronus ate his own offspring until Zeus eventually defeated him and the other Titans, imprisoning them in Tartarus, so is there a possibility that The First Ones of Warcraft have been imprisoned or killed by their own offspring.
The Greek mythology vibes feel strong.

But we’ll see. One thing I’m definitely leaning toward is that Blizzard intends to have a shocking lore and story reveal by the end of the expansion. It feels like they’re very much working toward a grand reveal, so to speak.
We’ll see. :slight_smile:

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Pretty sure that was the sundering that did that?

When they ripped Y’shaarj didn’t he just infect the entire landmass and they figured “this bad”

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Ripping out Y’Shaarj did not cause the first Cataclysm. It caused the creation of the Well of Eternity. Which was nothing but a big gaping wound of Azeroth that bled Azerite (now that we know what it is). After Y’Shaarj was ripped out he realized how fast the old gods had connected themself with the Titan Azeroth and if they did the same to the other old gods they would kill Azeroth in the process.

Sargeras has clearly demonstrated in the past that the Titans are capable of easily killing them (given Sargeras had cleaved an entire world (and its titan and automatically all old gods present) in half with a single swipe because the old gods corrupted it and he saw no redemption.

The sundering caused the first cataclysm.

Also killing Y’shaarj would have been stupid as the titans cant keep track of azeroth 24/7 (which they should have but whatever) and Azeroth was the most important thing to them. So having his Heart remain and as such prevent him from ressing in the Void would be more attractive. Its safe to assume they would have done a similar thing with the other Old Gods (also blame this on Blizzard retconning the old god part which reduced them beings capable of playing punching ball with sargeras to beings of “yeah, looks like a rare world quest if you’d ask me”)

He caused the well of eternity. Aman’thul saw that this did directly hurt Azeroth beyond believe and as such didnt continue doing that as they needed Azeroth to wake up further down the line.

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That is what I meant…

The hope expression of the Primus about the Jailer is from 9.1- not before.

They also ALL died against Sargeras, which is one against six- if they could all die to their brother because he wielded the violent Fel, then how could they beat the “titan-plus-plus” level Jailer? Also Blizzard has stated that the other Eternal Ones are titan-level, which they are- they just have another nature and approach to the world, they seem like “roleplaying” so they can take care and interact with the souls of their people.

They are. They made the Titans, as they made the Void lords, the Light equivalent, the Eternal Ones, and so on.

That is what I mean by “could not kill them”, because they would destroy Azeroth…even a 5 year old would understand that this is what I meant, meaning no offense.

This is acceptable, more acceptable than what I fear in my original post. However, I don’t think that the first beings in the Cosmos could create something more powerful than them that could ultimately kill them.

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By him not wielding the fel. Something the Titans are weak against. Also the level of strength varies between the titans. So the jailer being somewhat titan plus plus does not mean he could with ease battle aman’thul or even Sargeras (who by all accounts would be titan plus plus too). And IF Azeroth wakes up the only thing he can do is beg for mercy.

And even then the battle between the titans took a while and caused a lot of damage.

Source. I doubt the first ones made the titans. As otherwise the titans would have paid way more attention to the shadowlands. Also I sincerely doubt they made the void lords. The void lords are said to be so strong they could play punching ball with sargeras. Sargeras deemed them unbeatable.

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I don’t know. I think it depends on what story Blizzard are trying to tell. But in Blizzard’s other IPs there’s often a sinister truth that reveals a reality that is more grim than what you thought, hoped, or were told. Like when Artanis and Kerrigan discover the dead Xel’naga on Ulnar, or that the hero learns that the Worldstone must be destroyed.

I would not be surprised if Blizzard has looked at their somewhat bland origin story for the Warcraft cosmos and thought that it would benefit from a more consequential truth that can be revealed to the shock and horror of the audience. And there’s plenty of inspiration to be found in real-world mythology – not that they can’t make their own cool stories of course.

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There is no evidence that Azeroth is a Titan, really- nor is there evidence that it would be the most powerful when it woke up. It most likely will be, because it is very special (the “secret that the First Ones sought to hide”, perhaps). The fact that all Cosmic Powers want to claim Azeroth’s soul for themselves shows that it isn’t a Titan exactly, which means it would not join the Pantheon when it woke up, at least not willingly.

There is no “cryptonite” here- all Cosmic Forces are equal and antithetical to one another. It’s a free for all. The same harm that the Fel caused to the Titans could be caused by the Void, or the Light, so why not Death? Also the Jailer is stated to be an evil “older than reality”. The Titans were born inside the Great Dark Beyond, which means after Reality “occured”. They might not be the representative pantheon of Order, but, rather, “converts” to Order.

Why would they care about the Shadowlands? If the First Ones made the Cosmic Map, the universe, the appointed each Pantheon to its unique place and duty.

Yes, the various Pantheons seem unequal in power, to have weaknesses and strengths different than each other. Are the Naaru, for example, the best the Light can offer? We don’t know much, but when even the Void Lords can beat the hell out of the Titans, why should we believe they are the almighty “First Ones”?

Plot twists that shock people are nice, but the Titans being the First Ones in the first place would not be “shocking”, but disappointing, and honestly, a bit dumb.
If the First Ones are not outside the Cosmological Map, then my guess is that they are split betwen Light and Void. The Void lords are First Ones, and so are the Light equivalent, perhaps. Remember, the Chronicle stated that the clash of Light and Void, the eternal conflict, created everything.

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I think its pretty obvious First Ones arent the Titans, considering they created the cosmos as we know it, which in my opinion means they created all the major cosmic forces (Order, Life, Light, Death, etc). We also have speculation by Khadgar that Naaru were created by Elune, so I have a theory that Elune is actually one of the First Ones, being part of the Light, whereas others (we dont know who yet) are part of each other cosmic force.

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The Titans swore an oath to protect all life. They really can’t kill anything. Their oath means they all serve Eonar, even if Aman’Thul is allegedly their leader. In fact, another possibility as to why they can’t kill Old Gods is that… Old Gods are the result of the Titans’ oath to protect life. Death serves as a means of purifying life, and with the Titans around, many souls are deprived of their purification cycle. They consume infinitely, and they grow necrotic. In fact, in Draenor we have a few instances of life/plants rotting and changing into… purple tentacles.

Also, worth noting Blizz put the light and the void LITERALLY on the same side by giving the Alliance void elfs. So it’s not for their lack of power, but the Titans are literally incapable of killing old gods, because of their oath.

I am 90% certain Blizz will pull a “The First Ones are the Xel’Naga” at some point.

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It’s a world soul. World souls are titans. The titans literally talk about her as a Titan and Sargeras had seen her. So yes we have evidence.

No. But amanthul assumes she does. Even today. Sargeras did too after he had seen her.

Nobody suggests she would or should join the pantheon. If her behavior so far is any indicator then she would probably remain on Azeroth and protect it.

False. The titans are beings of arcane. Polar opposites to fel. Fel counters and is countered by arcane. But given Sargeras is still a Titan in the end he was the only one with an advantage.

Solely for the fact if you were correct that it houses beings on par with them. So in the very least after sargeras had been imprisoned they should have paid attention to it given they felt first hand that their kind can be corrupted or become loose cannons.

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I’m not really prone to speculating about certain possibilities just to deem them acceptable or dumb or whatever. I like to think about whether something is possible or not, but I don’t really see the value in giving hypothetical story plots a thumbs-up or thumbs-down ahead of them even being told.
But yeah, a plot twist would not surprise me (although it would of course be surprising!).
Could The First Ones be Light and Void? Sure. Like I said, the narrative is still at a point where the story can go in any direction. We’ll see.

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The Pantheon of the Titans sought “to bring order to the universe”, so it makes sense that the Titans were created, as much as the Titans created the Aspects.

I can’t see that The First Ones were not, themselves, created… maybe as a ‘first version’ of the Titans…

What I’d like (better) insight on is… where does The Shadowlands fit into - if indeed it does, at all - the Cosmology map of The Chronicles…? IS it part of Death…?

EDIT:
Do any of The First Ones mirror the purposes of the Titans of Sargeras’ iteration (for want of another word)…?

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Probably. Given necromancy and undead are part of it and it’s source of power comes directly from Maldraxxus or the maw. So at least part of it fits the chart. Or maybe with all its zones and stuff it may be like behind all of it and dabbling into all of it except maybe void.

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The way I read that was that Y’shaarj - the entire entity - was so entrenched in Azeroth as to be part of it, that removing the heart was the only way to kill it.
I also took that part of the story to indicate that the removal of the heart from the rest of the entity caused the Sundering that created the separation of Kalimdor from the Eastern Kingdoms, as we now know them.
The Cataclysm was the result of Neltharion escaping from Deepholm and a totally separate event from the Sundering.

I’m inclined to give credence to the Shadowlands being an ‘alternate timeline’ to Death… or at least “an undisclosed, thus far, explanation” of what Death is. How much, I don’t know… but some.

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Sundering happened because Well of Eternity was destroyed by Malfurion by overloading it using Dragon Soul. Azshara wanted to create a portal between Legion world and Azeroth, to invite some “friendly” demons.

The Well of Eternity was just a massive wound, filled with Azeroth’s arcane energy blood.

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Would need sources for that. Don’t think anything supports that.

It didn’t. Malfurion imploded the well of eternity during the war of the ancients and that caused the sundering (an cataclysmic event. Hence cataclysm). Y’shaarj being ripped out caused the well of eternity to be created as the well was nothing but the wound caused by his forceful removal.

I said first cataclysm. Emphasis on first. Deathwing causing the second (emphasis on second) cataclysm around 10 years ago was of no relevance whatsoever.