A lot of people seem to think it’s something to do with map design, even though before classic release for years it was accepted wisdom that AV slightly favored the alliance.
The real reason is the difference in strategy for the most honor/hour for the 2 factions. Lets assume back in the premade days horde could premade, even if they could they would never do the alliance sub 10 minute rushes. Especially when at points there ques exceeded an hour and 15mins in length. Would they rather get 2.7k honor every hour and 25mins, or 4.5k+ honor every hour and 25 mins.
The math for horde where they spend more time in ques than in battlgrounds has always said max honor per game. While the math for alliance with instant ques has always said go for the fastest game possible. Better to lose a game with 2k honor in 15mins, than winning after 50mins. The incentives push alliance rankers to try and lose lost games as fast a possible, and horde rankers to get every bit of honor they possible can.
It’s pretty obvious the optimal horde strategy for ranking lines up a lot better with actually winning the game than the alliance one.
Making the map alliance favored could counteract that pressure to a degree, although it’s not really fair to have the team that puts in less effort, and plays worse win.
Alliance started opting for faster losses because longer games were anyway impossible to win due to the said map advantages. This is overall proven by the fact that symmetric BG offer a 50/50 win ratio and not a 5/95.
What symmetric bg offer? You are aware in actual vanilla the alliance won most of the time.
The alliance do have a number of advantages, but most people do agree the alliance has an advantage rushing, and horde have an advantage in long games.
The alliance rush advantage is obviously the fact that any solo player can cap a tower pretty easily, while alliance bunkers are a pain to capture in comparison, and the shorter distance to the boss.
I believe if you had a metric option put in classic with pug ques like we have now the horde would win even more than they currently do.
Alliance won in vanilla because most of it was played on a patch where AV was balanced around those advantages and you had to actually hold youtr objective and not just get the first Ally GY and then backdoor.
Bunkers are a lot easier to capture and one of them can simply be skipped while the way to IB and the FW GY gets Alliance players in range of both towers.
It’s been said a million times, but again it needs to be said as there is a multitude of factors why alliance perform poorly in AV, and in no certain order
1 - Map is advantageous to horde.
2 - Alliance instant queues allows for bots / afkers / leechers on a greater scale reducing the effective fighting force.
3 - Alliance instant queues incentivises players to prefer for a fast lose than a slow drawn out win/lose.
4 - AV is poor honour for serious PVP rankers and thus the calibre of player is of a lower standard on average
5 - Since AV can no longer be premade (for EU alliance anyway) those that do premade will be in WSG and AB. So again, the calibre of player is of a lower standard on average.
6 - Very few people lead in AV. Those that do or have (I being one) got either hounded by those who contributed nothing but be the first to complain or simply be ignored by half the team (becuase of afk/bots/leechers/low energy players) making it frustrating and ultimately discouraged those that could lead from ever wanting to lead.
7 - Player Mentality, as this has now been going on for months and months, the attitude of defeat is present from the start so a good portion of the team may think ‘why bother even trying? I’ll just go do my own thing’
Totally agree. A certain type of player, who you elequently describe, will lurk at the beginning saying nothing at all but as soon as it goes pearshaped will immediately pipe up with “expert” knowledge as to why it went pearshaped and various insults. While they AFK on the “hill of shame” for 20 minutes whining. Their negative drivel infests the raid and people just give up. These characters prefer whining for 30 minutes rather than taking the 15 minute deserter debuff and it kills the enjoyment for other players. AV isn’t a pleasure at all these days.
Yes yes it’s all about your skill and tactical fortitude it has nothing to do with the fact that the map is so much in your favor it may as well be called Hordeterac Valley.
We all know before we enter AV that there is a 95% chance that the game will end with everything in horde favour. Max honor and objectives for them and the absolute least that they let us get away with.
Heck, sometimes they haven’t even bothered to kill Balinda after 30 minutes even though they’ve destroyed IW and SH bunkers and have had SH GY for 20 minutes. They’re not even in DB they’re just making sure that alliance can’t cap any towers or kill any LT’s. They’d rather be recalling to FW than actually go and finish the game which was wide open for them to do.
When entering an AV and knowing this is the fate that awaits, why bother even trying?
Map is advantageous to horde because it allows alliance to push and win in 6-7 minutes and also in horde towers alliance can hit horde through them, effectively giving them a 20-40% headstart in combat.
That’s an issue on Blizzard’s part, but it just so happens to be that it evens out the alliance advantage. Also instant queues so the net honor should be around the same as horde’s since we are sitting on 20-30 min queues during AV weekend and up to 60+ min outside of AV weekend.
??? You got instant queues so you can easily just base race, win in 6-7 minutes, get that extra 1-2k honor or however much it is for a win and then get another queue instantly.
Also affects horde in that manner.
Again, this applies to horde as well, but Alliance players are actually teaming up via Discord for AV, which I still believe shouldn’t be allowed considering Blizzard changed it for a reason.
Having people listen in AV is pure luck. Even with Alliance’s map advantage of base racing, Horde could prevent the 6-7 min losses if “defense” existed in a typical Zugzug’s dictionary.
Why do alliance players even have this mentality? You were winning almost every single AV when it came out, you can easily win if you just coordinate. Yet people rarely seem to try and cooperate because all of a sudden horde started getting some more wins and instantly alliance players just fell into a depression.
Its true that alliance players is the issue aswell.
Say alliance face russians, they go for hut and if they manage to kill drek, thats 2.5k honor during av weekend total, since they ignored all lts.
Would alliance have killed all lts, thats 2376 x 2. By the time the russians win because of their vann pull coordination, that would mean quicker honor gain. The issue with alliance is that they think they can bring 40 ppl on the same page. Simply 1 turtle russian shadow priest fears that pet and pulls out all warmasters and its over. We are only on 1.5k bonus for the av weekend bonus.
Alliance wants honor without effort, no matter what balance.
Horde can also do the rush tactic, it’s quite common seeing this from the Russian horde as they too have instant queues. EU horde don’t do this as their long queues disincentive’s the want for quick games.
And the tower thing, lol. Likewise, horde can do that to an alliance player when they are attempting to cap tower. Horde can cap alliance bunker by standing on the weapon rack underneaf and cap the flag bypassing the elite and archers…so both towers/bunkers have their flaws.
Partially true that Blizz inaction over bots have encouraged them from being more. However the queues for horde is a player base problem rather than a blizz issue. If more hordies joined Alliance to balance the queues than maybe you guys won’t have such bad queue times.
Except Horde are very aware of this tactic and will do everything in their power to prevent it. And very rarely does rush tactic work due to 60% mounts, raids getting split because horde had mid field dominance, easier choke points to defend etc
When comparing rank averages whenever i’m in horde are on average higher rank, suggesting to me that horde high ranks will queue and then do WSG/AB in the meantime of waiting for AV to pop. So somewhat true but to a lesser extent for horde.
Only Russian alliance are able to do this, so equating that to all alliance seems a bit disingenuous or at least naive. Anyway, this is because there is only a small pool of Russian servers. So they can simply join a discord, mass queue, join, and then whichever AV they joined, they enter that discord room. For EU and American alliance this is no longer possible as the pool size is just to great.
If only we could get those afkers and botters to listen…
I have no idea what games you are joining, but horde defend (turtle) like mad in ALL (excluding against Russian) games i join. If even a few alliance get through, horde will mass recall to that location and overwhelm and hold the chokepoint at IW bunker. Horde prolong games as can be evident in horde holding back at the choke point, farming alliance at GY’s (which are very easy to farm compared to horde GY’s), maxing honour with recalling getting wingmasters, lok’holar etc. The rush tactic i have only ever seen work when it is against Russians, and that is becuase they have have the same incentives as the alliance players. So, horde defend like mad in AV to their credit. I have no idea why you are suggesting horde don’t defend.
Anyway, you ignored (or glossed over) the core reason to point 6. Which is player toxicity (which i understand is to unique to alliance).
my post is literally answering that question…
Premade alliance at the start before blizz banned it was that, people co-ordinating and following a leader/plan. The fallout effect it had on the queue system where players mass queued and then left if the queue was not favourable was a result of Blizz preventing AV from being joined as a group in the first place. So people found a work around.
Why has that co-ordination gone? Like i said, it’s hard to co-ordinate 40 people when a good chunk of the team are afkers, botters, leechers and low energy. The portion which are alert and attentive are simply outnumbered by the alert and attentive horde as the instant queue system encourages such afkers, bots, leechers to a greater extent on Alliance side.
No single issue is the sole cause of the Alliance poor performance in AV, it is a myriad of reasons, both large and small. And they all mount up. That you seem to ignore all these and still ask the question ‘Why do alliance players even have this mentality?’ shows a lack of wanting to accept things as they are.
Isn’t it interesting that Russians can rush Aid Station and Kill Vanndar but the rest of the horde that keep lying about the billions of Alliance advantages in AV can’t?
Must be that those liars either aren’t smart enough or are far too disingenuous to see reality.
Actualy. The queue time you have is the length of your own game.
Often are there horde 5man premades doing nothing, but chasing allience players, that magically survive getting past SH. Making sure ally get 0 bonus honor, which make alot of ally players quit AV, there is no reason for you do to so, it only prolong your queuetimes. Also you often make the game last 55mins, even tho you could have won in 20 = longer queue times. Add 30% bigger playerbase, and there is your answer.
The bottom truth is this. Once you have SH, and we dont have IB, it is gameover for allience, as there is no way to retake SH due to terrain. We usualy stop trying right there and then. Simply beause it is impossible to break out of it. And you are free to push in and win. But you rarely do so.
So the long queue times are on you, and you alone.
I would love to see the map reversed for 2 weeks. We get your side, and just dance around in field of strife, without any leadership, or tactic. Just stall you, cap SH and win.