imo i think making the bosses deal so much damage especially with so many one shot mechanics this seasons dungeon rotation, its actually super unfun…i feel like every other week i need to go afk and just wait for tyra week to be over
Meanwhile, some tyrannical weeks are push weeks for people who know how to coordinate their defensive use.
for lower keys 18-20s, it is because people still don’t know mechanics and generally have terrible ST dmg because they cannot pad dmg like on fortified…
2 Likes
For low keys I do, like Durokx said its annoying people cant execute a super scripted fight.
For high keys, im really sick of having to look on external websites if I would survive the unavoidable 1-shots.
Or having to deal with bizzar RNG abilities that truck (EB mage, tree boss, 3rd boss of ToT, to name a few)…
So I tend to avoid tyranical weeks.
Any key is easy or hard, depending on the people you have with you.
Too many can make a low key hard by just being unaware of everything ever.
i would imagine people generally like fortified more, because we want to play dungeons and not raids.
non fortified mobs flop over to fast it is not even funny.
either way, they should just do away with fort/tyrn and adjust the health of bosses and mobs accordingly.
having these 2 affixes makes it also much harder to balance dungeons because what is fine of fortified might be terrible on tyrannical as seen in this season
IMO tyranical/fortified affixes are not the overlaying issue this expansion:
IMO what they need to change is:
A) Just get rid of all the affixes. Leave only tyr/fort and add seasonal kiss/curse affix. DONE.
B) Do a separation between M+ and Raid. We are in this 1-shot fest situation we are because of Raid. S1 and S2 were horrible because they decided to buff mob damage and player HP by a total of 70%. Because healers were too OP in raid. And all that scales horribly bad in M+.
C) M+ scaling should be damage & HP up to a point. When things reach the point where they do obscene damage and you got your healer already working full time, then stop damage scaling. Just double the HP of mobs modifier.
IMO that is what they should do.
God no, please. We need more difficult affixes, if anything. I don’t fancy quitting the season after the 4th run in Mythic+, just because they were 100% identical.
100%. Though I feel like the gear progression (apart from the flightstone famine) has never been this balanced, ever.
The situation is not worse than before. You will start seeing one-shot as you are climbing higher, that is inevitable. And the healer problem from S2 has been “fixed” with the uber powerful S3 tier sets.
Come on now… that is a ridi… hmmm.
Interesting idea. But that has some issues too:
- You will make the highest damage tanks and healers mandatory, not even just META.
- You will create more giga-pulls, as their damage does no increase, their difficulty will not increase either. Classes that cannot do incredible uncapped AoE damage are out of the season.
- Design restriction. Fights where an enemy does increasing dmg while it’s alive will become impossible. The difficulty difference between dungeons with that vs ones without it will be infinite.
1 Like
I play RShaman. I have a problem with that statement. 
Yes. But its much easier to balance that. Raw damage is something we all have. Utility (where I include Deff CDs from all roles), you cant balance that unless you give the same thing to everyone (either ALL or nothing).
So YES. The meta will always exist. But it will be significantly less opresive.
This is something Blizz has managed to balance in time. Prio damage vs. uncapped AoE… its a good question. Either way, bigger pulls == more CCs, more interrupts… and… more damage and pulls last for longer. If you can pull that off then go for it !
Because remember, I never said nerf damage. Just cap it. So the Abos and stingers of EB will still truck. They will just not 1-shot you the moment you pull them. And if you pull 2 of them in a high key its still a wipe.
Either way, if you want to succeed in a dungeon, you need both. Uncapped aoe specialist, and prio damage funnel DDs to snipe prio targets. Both are equaly usefull, but taking too much of 1 or the other never is. And that has been true since Legion.
So I dont see it as such a dissadvantage.
Not really. That is a mechanic intrinsic to the dungeon. So if you do a 5+ and the mob lives too long, eventually it will one shot. If you do a 20+, well it will take less time to one-shot you.
But you will never reach the point where it will one-shot you the instant you pull it. You will at-least have… say… 10 casts to kill it minimum. More key level, more DPS you need to achieve that.
In the end, you acheive the same result: Limiting how far you can push an infinitely scalable system. But… HPS and HP pools are hard caped. Raw DPS is the only metric that has no hard cap. Only soft caps.
So it feels much more sensible to me to limit an infinitely scalable system to another one that is, by its very nature, also infinite.
Its sort of: The middle ground between “healing is boring there is no damage” and “mobs do crazy amounts of damage and the healer is a workaholic”. A good compromise IMO that achieves all the intended results with none of the drawbacks.
Blizz has tried to balance affixes since Legion. Failed for 15 years in a row. I doubt they have the capability of making something “challenging” with out simultaneously making it “annoying”.
The only times they did manage was with some seasonal affixes. So do those. Kiss Curse affixes. Rotate them every week or whatever. But get the ones that had nice reception and just use those.
And in addition: If their motto is “play the dungeon not the affix” then please remove things like “bolstering fortified”. Its the worst. OR, change vision. Blizz can say tomorrow “hey, well now affixes will be the #1 thing in M+”. But they have to say it and be consistent with their policy.
Yeah, that tier set bonus is injustice.
The irony. The only way you can achieve balance in dmg if all the specs play exactly the same.
I don’t think that the math supports that. If you can survive 1 Abo (by your example) then you can survive even 2 or three. Just need to pull them so they burst at different times.
That is what will happen if the damage is not scaling further. And pure AoE with larger pulls will always beat the dungeon faster than prio dmg. Shadowlands S1 proved that.
I don’t think you understood what I meant. I did not mean that things would be harder compared to previous season. What I meant is that dungeons with this mechanic will be hard capped. That’s it, no way to progress further (like how it is in prev season). It’s not a timer issue. It’s a scaling issue.
So you agree that it is not an affix, but dungeon and class design issue?
Where is the irony? Im confused.
I never expected perfect balance and a non-existant meta. All I said, is that its something easier to achieve than with Utility.
There will always be a meta. But you cant compare a mage or a ret in “tankynes” and deff CDs to an Enh or a Warrior. You just cant. And they all do ~ the same damage.
And currently, the only way to balance that is to give more deff CDs (or equivalent ones) to Enh and Warrior. Which would be dumb.
Not to mention, some speks stack vers, some do not. And I, as a healer, can feel first hand the difference between them. So what do you do? Give non-vers stacking specs 20% base DR or something? How is that even remotely fair?
Nah. Damage. Tweeking %ages in abilities is something Blizz is good at doing.
Everything else, they have proven to be bad at it.
Cries in riptides… 
OK. Do that on a 25 or a 26. Today. 1 abo hurts, but its definitely far from a 1-shot.
Get 2 of them. Lets see what happens then. (cause dont forget, with the abo you have spinny boyz and 20 lashers as well).
If after that you still think that its a good idea on a 26 (taking 2 unsinked abos) today… S3… then OK. Il agree I was wrong.
I think you understood me. If the mob has more life, you take longer to kill it. Therefore, you will reach the “limit of 10 casts before it 1-shots” with a higher probability. And eventually, that 1 mob will have raid boss HP. You wont down him before he casts 10 things… no chance.
But atleast it wont 1-shot.
I agree to many things. Including that.
None of the obvious solutions have been implemented by blizz over the years. So its better to cut our losses and keep it simple.
1 Like
iv played a+28 dht the other day and on tree boss i get one shotted with 100k overkill on both of the mechanics(pushback and fixate) if i dont have astral shift
Unfortunately for you, there is a massive difference between classes who stack vers and classes who dont.
Rogues run with 44% vers. So they take 22% less damage PERMANENTLY. Its half of Astral Shift, with no CD.
Also, if you are really lucky get more Avoidance stats. It helps against the tree boss a lot. I have 11% and I feel it.
1 Like
I am pretty sure we were talking about tanks and healers in this context, since they are the ones who will be asked to do more damage in your new scaling system.
I guess I made a bad example to get my point across. The point was: your scaling system will make top priorities less threatening that they are designed to be.
Not, but that dungeon will not be run competitively, like the others.
No. I was not. I was talking about DPS, but the same exact idea also applies to both tanks and healer. Balance would be even easier than what it is now.
We can get into healers if you want. Same concept. Why are MW, Rdrud, and Dpriest are powerful right now, not because of HPS/DPS… but because of utility. Because currently I can out-heal and out-dps all 3 specs. EZ.
Utility cant be balanced. Unless you give Rshaman the utility MW have. But then I would not be a shaman. I would be a blue MW monk.
Not sure you get what im saying… Il put an example with made up numbers because you are confused:
You got this 1 mob that does an AoE damage, in 30s intervals. Like the bear in DHT for example.
TODAY:
0+: That AoE will drop the party from 100 to 90. #casts = 1 (because he is dead in < 30s).
10+ (+40% damage AND +40% health): That AoE will drop the party from 100 to 70. #casts = 2.
20+ (+100% damage AND 100% health): That AoE will drop the party from 100 to 10. #casts = 3.
25+ (+150% damage AND 150% health): On pull, 1st cast of the AoE you get 1-shot 0.1s after entering combat. Nothing to do there.
WHAT I am proposing:
0+: That AoE will drop the party from 100 to 90. #casts = 1 (because he is dead in < 30s).
10+ (+40% damage AND +40% health): That AoE will drop the party from 100 to 70. #casts = 2.
20+ (+100% damage AND 100% health): That AoE will drop the party from 100 to 10. #casts = 3.
Note how from 0+ to 20+ nothing has changed from today. You still go from 100-10 in 1 single cast (massive truck).
My proposition: cap damage to a 20+, but DOUBLE the health % increase for keys after a 20.
25+ (+100% damage AND 200% health): That AoE will drop the party from 100 to 10. #casts = 6. Healer risks going OOM. Need to play DPS perfectly.
30+ (+100% damage AND 400% health): That AoE will drop the party from 100 to 10. #casts = 24. Healer goes OOM. Cant heal that much/cant time the key. IMPOSSIBLE.
See now what I mean? That bear in DHT is STILL a prio target dont get me wrong… but you have to deal with the massive damage it does for DOUBLE the time for each key level. Its not suddenly going to stop being a prio target. It will still truck, but not 1-shot. Thats all.
Now extend that same concept to a whole dungeon. You think that all of a sudden by capping max damage to just shy a 1-shot that would somehow allow you to pull half the dungeon? NO. If you cant do it today, you still wont be able to with my proposition.
And before you start with “damage in a 20 is low, blabla” I made those numbers up. Just to show a point.
I am quite happy with 1 shots. It just means that is getting to the limit we can do. It scales infinite. It is OK to me a certain level is not doable anymore. I have tried everbloom 23 this week 7 times. And the amount of people instant fall over on the 3rd boss from the fire is high. I do feel like this 23 is still doable on tyrannical, but maybe with other specs. And i am not going to attempt a 24 at all. That dungeon will just be done for the season when i would be on 23 (and 24 on fortified).
2 Likes
This is something I’ve said so many times, but some people don’t want to hear it. M+ is not meant to be balanced in very high keys. When we get to that key level, we’re getting into territory where weird stuff happens. Part of the challenge - and fun - is figuring out ways to deal with the weird stuff.
Yes, 3rd boss is where a lot of keys fall apart. It’s probably the first real test of CD management for dps on a dungeon boss. Any other boss up to the same key level can be powered through by the healer carrying it.
2 Likes
Well, i managed to get in a better group yesterday and timed it on +24 instead of +23 
I think that dungeon is done on tyrannical. Wiped on 3rd boss again but still timed with 2 seconds.
1 Like
Tried it in 27 tyranical last week.
And 3rd boss turns out to be EZ for me (courtesy of practicing it so much).
The last boss… I just dont have the efficiency in HPS of a MW. I run out of mana.
Simple as that.
Sad because if my mana would have lasted 5s more, I would have had my mana pot back off CD.
I really, really saturated of EB. Been there too many times. It really tests shamans to the limit and I start to feel the limitations of my class. And get jealous of MW monks while im at it… 
This has nothing to do with the healing spec though. It is just clear tyrannical is way harder than fortified, and on 23 you can not carry a group anymore. You can not heal dead people.
People usually get jealous on other specs. Mistweaver and resto shaman are doing the same keys last week. On everbloom +29 they are 2k hps away from each other.
https://www.archon.gg/wow/tier-list/healer-rankings/mythic-plus/20/everbloom/last-week