Wind Ranger Hero Talents (and why Dark Ranger is terrible idea)

Classes Hunter
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Hello :bow_and_arrow:

So there is a post on the US forums suggesting a “Wind Ranger” Hero Talents (reminding the Legion days) instead of “Dark Ranger”. And since EU can’t post/comment on US (mindblowing), I am opening the topic here as well.

First of all, I’d like to start with saying that “Dark Ranger” as a Hero Spec is absolutely terrible and insensible idea, because it completely changes the aesthetics and only works for some people, as it pushes hunters to a “new” cosmic force out of nowhere. Hero talents should never be used to introduce a “new” & “strong” fantasy that is not already in the heart of the class. Hero talents should emphasize, not alter the class fantasy for which the class was originally chosen. Enough bad alteration was already done by “removing” pets from MM (in PvE) and the re-design of Survival.

Generally, themes that are heavily tied to certain aesthetics or even a cosmic force (such as Dark Ranger) should be achieved by a combination of character customization, transmog and ability glyphs. And via these means, we might all have our thing - Dark Rangers, Sun Rangers and everything in between, without touching a single talent point. So using Hero talents for this is fundamentally wrong.

Thad said, I personally love this “Wind Ranger” idea. But it could just be called “Ranger” and just utilize air/wind to introduce new abilities for hunters.

Maybe the “wind theme” is currently not in the heart of the class as well, but at least it is a “subtle” and very “general” theme. I believe it would not offend anyone (kind of magic-oriented but general and grounded), it does not interfere with the core class/spec fantasy but it builds on top of it (whereas Dark Ranger would replace it) and the idea for abilities is/was already there (wind arrows, movement boost for allies, movement reduction for enemies, movement ward, …).

Also, it might finally lead to hunters having some good (movement) party/raid utility. And one day, this might even end up opening a door to a new support spec.

The utilization of wind in general gives a lot of room for creativity. It makes me think that this should actually be a core part of any hunter (nature+wind), rather than just the hero talents, but I am more than ok with this to avoid the Dark Ranger nonsense.

As MM, it would be so nice to not be forced to a single hero spec (Sentinel) because of the terribly insensitive Dark Ranger idea.

Happy holidays and may everyone not be forced to play something that does not vibe with them! :heart_hands:

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They could just turn MM into a soft windranger (almost is already), it deals physical damage, focus on many arrows etc. That way maybe we get a Spellbow/Farstrider hero class :smiley:

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It’s literally just a few passive abilities it’s really not that deep

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That would be nice! :blush: But I didn’t dare to expect such a re-design in the MM spec itself, and stayed in the realm of Hero talents. That said, I wouldn’t say the “wind” theme is “almost already” there. We have like one passive ability.

Fair enough, but to me, it’s about the principle and general direction. Maybe the implementation will be poor and shallow now, but they can double down on it later on. Let’s accept that they are advertising it as a big feature, so I (pretend to) expect a significant impact. Not to mention that the Hero talents will stay for a few expansions and evolve. So let’s not underestimate it and be content with a bad direction :pray:

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You are not going to have much luck there though. Dark ranger is one of the most liked hero specs across all classes/specs.

If you don’t like it that’s completely fine, you will still have the other hero spec option available to you.

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I for one is very hyped for dark ranger.

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Dude, we literally have no idea how it’s gonna work at all.

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Coming back to the topic after watching all the developer interviews for the 4 released Hero Talents - I just felt the need to expand on the initial post and again underline how much the “Dark Ranger” misses the mark :expressionless:

The devs are clearly stating that the goal of the Hero Talents is to emphasize a certain (already existing) fantasy and to make it visually recognizable & appealing. That makes it clear that Hero Talents are an important and impactful system (at least in terms of fantasy & lore). A system that will stay for multiple expansions.

Looking at the 4 released Hero Talents, all of them just emphasize a fantasy that is already present in the existing specs (sometimes all specs of a given class):

  • Chronowarden (for Augmentation and Preservation Evokers) - based mainly on bronze magic, which is core of both specs
  • Lightsmith (for Holy and Protection Paladins) - based on holy magic, which is core of all specs
  • Mountain Thane (for Fury and Protection Warriors) - based on “thunder” abilities, which has always been in the core of warriors
  • San’layn (for Blood and Unholy Death Knights) - based on blood and diseases, which are core of both specs

With this clearly stated direction, impactfulness and released examples, it’s pretty clear that Dark Ranger is out-of-place :face_with_spiral_eyes: There is currently no “dark” fantasy in the core of Hunters (or even anywhere else). It’s a completely new theme for general Hunter fantasy and it’s a theme that is unacceptable to many. And no, the fact that there is a second option does not justify the fact that one option is not viable from the very beginning :triumph:

I don’t see any Void Evokers, Unholy Paladins, Feral Warriors or Restoration DK Hero Talents. So where the idea of Dark Ranger as Hero Talents even come from? :face_with_diagonal_mouth:

If the devs mean their intention and the interest in feedback seriously, then “Dark Ranger” can never make it to the game via Hero Talents. There has to be a more “cosmetic” way to achieve this (customization, transmog, glyphs) to still make people happy :crossed_fingers:

:four_leaf_clover:

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I’m quite excited for the Dark Ranger Hero tree tbh, Wind Ranger does not sound interesting at all kk thx.

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Just becuase a player chose a class for a reason doesnt mean their reasoning is well informed. So if a player chose hunter becuase they thought wow hunters where literal just archers, then that’s on them for not being informed of the lore, maybe blizz aswell for not communicating what they are better.

Dark rangers are one of the most prominent groups of hunters in the lore only really behind the sentinels. Saying that dark rangers deviate from the wow hunter fantasy is like saying that shadow priest deviate from the priest fantasy becuase light wielding priest are more prominent.

Wind hunters however make 0 sense, the only reason mm has wind arrow style abilities is becuase its a hold over from legion where alerias bow was magical and so it allowed the hunter to use wind magic. But it is not a part of the established hunter aesthetic to be able to do this and its no where near as established as dark rangers.

Finally the point of hero talents is to expand the class to encompass parts of its fantasy within the lore that are not represented aswell currently within the class.

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I wouldn’t say that choosing a class based on it’s long-term in-game implementation (i.e. not dark), and not based on it’s supressed background lore (i.e. dark), is not well-informed. It’s the “more sane” and reasonable decision process.

That’s not true by the communication of devs. It’s meant to further emphasize a certain direction/fantasy that is already present in the core. Take a look at the other examples.

I don’t expect an agreement here, but I’ll offer one last perspective - after all, to me, this is about a general principle/approach to Hero Talents, it’s not specifically about the Dark Ranger (that’s just a shining problem) or Wind Ranger (which was just a “random” example, which I don’t care about).

Fantasies/themes attached to cosmic forces are strong. That’s applies especially to “evil-ish” forces such as Void, Fel and Death. People typically lean to either “good-ish” or “evil-ish” side heavily. So for the “good-ish” people, the classes such as Shadow Priest, Warlock or Death Knight are “unacceptable”. But that’s ok, there are choices.

But then imagine this:

  • you are looking for “good-ish” class and decide for a Hunter - that’s all good, no traces about Void/Fel/Death in Hunter’s nature-oriented implementation for the whole 20 years
  • you play the character with passion for years
  • then, out-of-nowhere (!), someone comes and says you’re Hunter is now “dark”, which is not acceptable to you
  • the fact that there is another option (Sentinel) does not mean much, because, by principle, if one choice (Dark Ranger) can twist your character so strongly (badly), the other can as well

So:

  • best case scenario - you’re left with a single option (i.e. no choice) from the very beginning, and that applies for several next expansions (!), or probably forever (!!)
  • worst case scenario - no option is acceptable for you, making your beloved character unplayable, probably forever (!!!)

No other Hero Talents so far is introducing a strong new theme that is not a core part of the current implementation of the class.

I believe anyone with a basic common sense has to see it :pray: The problem is that people will just take the chance to play the Dark Rangers, regardless of how negatively it impacts part of the population. That’s sad, but to be expected these days :face_exhaling:

I believe there better ways to deliver Dark Rangers than this insensible way :four_leaf_clover:

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As someone who adores Survi Hunter since its remake, the only reason why Dark Ranger is hyped is Sylvanas.

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Gotta say this. Dark Rangers and using aspects of Shadow/Void have been around since WC3 and constant part of the lore, both in World of Warcraft, Warcraft, and the Warcraft TTRPG. Until the Survival melee rework there was even Black Arrow (which first summoned a skeleton then was changed proc’d LnL) - The only other aspect similar was the Shadow Hunter trolls, which were hunters as well (which also had the ability to cast shadow bolt). So, this argument that “Dark Ranger” doesn’t fit the concept of Hero options or is strictly based on Sylvanas is completely flawed. Survival was the Dark Ranger throughout most of it’s ranged career throughout TBC, WtLK, and Cata in WoW alone.

“Wind Ranger” - the only part of that which could very round about be called to from lore was during the Marksman Artifact from Legion, from specifically Alleria Windrunner…who became the Void Elf…so, still a Dark Ranger, only not requiring death to be the determining factor.

The Dark Ranger class is something that has been asked for multiple times when the first implementation of hero classes were hinted at pre-Wrath - so “regardless of how negatively it impacts part of the population” is an attempt to appeal of confirmation solely to your own perspective vs. the actual lore and world that has been present far longer.

(And I could also post on the NA forums as well - as I have accounts for both NA and EU)

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Well … trying to say that Hunters are Dark Rangers because there was a single ability in their toolkit of tens of abilities … and trying to say that Void Elves are Dark Rangers … that’s very wild.

Anyway, to be more constructive. I can see two clearly different perspectives here - one where it is seen as a new option and one where it is seen as a modification of existing characters.

Your perspective is advocating for the Dark Ranger because:

  • Dark Rangers are well established in lore
  • you consider Hero Talents as means to introduce new / not-implemented fantasies/themes (basically the same as a new class would introduce a new fantasy)

But I was never disputing the first point, and the second point is wrong (as per devs’ communication and all the other Hero talents). Therefore, nothing of what was written does address my concern. Not at all.

I am looking at the situation, not from the perspective of introducing a fresh new option into the game, but as a modification of my already-existing character (with no traces of darkness to be found):

  • the current implementation of Hunter has no dark theme in it (I really don’t count one ability out of tens) - the existing themes are shots, pets, traps, explosives, venoms, chakrams, …
  • Hero Talents are means to further emphasize/specialize (that’s why it’s called “talents”, not a new class or role) in a certain already-existing theme - so certain shots, traps, explosives, etc.

Take a look at all the other Hero talents. No major theme alteration is happening there. No infusion of a new cosmic force. No Fel Druids or Fire Priests.

And while Dark Rangers might be acceptable from one perspective, it’s not enough when it is not acceptable from the other perspective. Otherwise it’s extremely insensible.

Also, since we all know the balancing will not be optimal, if the “Dark Ranger” ends up being the stronger option of the two, it will be “Convenant 2.0”, as there will be significant character power attached to a strong theme that is out-of-place for all the current Hunter specs. That’s not acceptable.

But as I said already, this issue has to be apparent to everyone. It’s just about denying it to inconsiderately achieve personal preference. The fact, that it, by coincidence, fits some people, does not outweight the fact that it is wrong by principle/design. It might be the other way around next time.

Dark Ranger should be a cosmetic choice. Or a fourth spec, if there’s no other way. But not a sub-specialization of the existing specs.

Darkness is not in the core of Hunter class to justify making it Hero talents (i.e. specialization). It’s not about what exists in lore. It’s about what our existing characters are (not).

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Your facts = Your Opinion and thats all this post is, I don’t want this “WindRanger” of yours I’m quite content with Dark Ranger being a Hero option and I’m sure many more here are aswell.

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But all those are facts, clear and justifiable. :wink: And I am repeating yet another time that this is not about “Wind Ranger” - it was just an example, that I don’t care about specifically. It could be anything else from the currently implemented themes that the Hunters are being selected for, which I named above.

This is about “Dark Ranger” being an improper Hero talent option. And about the fact that because it suits part of the player base, it does not mean it’s ok (because of principles).

But you’re proving me right - just ignoring any facts/arguments to justify your personal preference at the expense of others (or common sense), while not upholding any principles or logic.

I am trying to find a way that does not harm anyone the way the Covenants did :four_leaf_clover:

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Your facts / Opinions, Claiming someone has no common sense because they do not share your opinion automatically shuts down your own argument.

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It isnt well informed, the dark rangers are the 2nd or arguably most prominent hunter organisation in the lore. They and the sentinels are the cenarion circle of hunters. So if you dont know about the dark rangers that’s on you.

This is on Blizz’s page about hero talents

They are an evergreen form of character progression for each class specialization that introduces new powers and class fantasies.

For iconic Warcraft character archetypes, we wanted to be sure that we could deliver on their fantasy with World of Warcraft’s classes.

So the point of these is to take from the greater Warcraft fantasy and bring elements that are popular from it within the classes we have. Its not to just give specs extra talents that dont change anything thematically.

This is just headcannon. There are no good or bad classes. Alleria used the void and was of the main heros of legion yet the scarlet crusade are evil and have a super strong connection to the light.

But even going on this thought process hunters would not only be neutral but down to use what ever is practical since first and foremost it is within the theme of a hunter to be pragmatic as you cant hunt creatures successful without being able to use the means to effectively kill it.

Also in terms of what you do, you still have the option for sentinel if you dont like the aesthetics and then if you do high level content just swap to dark ranger or play bm/surv and go pack leader

This is the most hypocritical point there are no wind rangers in lore, this theme comes from passive that in the lore was an enchantment on alerias bow, this ability to shoot arrows with wind is only supposed to be possible with that bow. So building a whole class from it is even more outside of the base hunter class fantasy then dark rangers. Wind rangers are the equivalent of death hunter as hero talents becuase of death chakram.

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I really don’t like being pushed into a specific playstyle/thematic. I don’t know why Blizzard doesn’t open the options more with glyphs and cosmetics for abilities rather than making whole skill lines that push you into this certain aesthetic. I really don’t like the idea of playing a dark ranger. I just want an MM playstyle (Lot’s of arrows, long ranged, big pew pew pew) that doesn’t push me to sacrifice my pet for a 10% damage buff :confused:

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A true Hunter :lion: