World of warcraft a.k.a. Pay To Win

Community General Discussion
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You don’t get to use some idiotic term like ‘Copium’ and claim to have a valid argument. How about you come up with your own?

‘Copium’…Jaysis, the moment you see that term you know you are staring intellectual dishonesty in the face.

Also, how do you still have a sub, when you clearly have resubbed whilst tokens and ‘P2W’ was a thing?

I Smell Hypocrisy.

So Hang on then. What does the ‘W’ stand for, in P2W?

I think there’s too many weird definitions going on that don’t make sense, but yeah, just answer me that one, what does the ‘W’ stand for?

So in other words…not to be taken seriously? OK, Good, glad we sorted that out.

When has it ever not been thus?

I do not think you are in a position to critique other people’s wording. Even if English is not your first language, which is a possibility, and understandable, ‘ppl’ is not a word.

Don’t use terms like that, and -then- try to criticise other people’s understanding of the meaning of words.

Um…Yeah, that is actually the definition of rational thought. There is no evidence, there is no logical reasoning, just silly 4chan and Twitch terms, so all that is left, is to take things literally (Using the word in it’s correct sense) as a basis for forming a rational view on it.

Yes. You have just described rational thought.

In that case, whoever these people are, inventing these terms, should use language correctly. I mean it doesn’t even make sense as an acronym!

How is anyone supposed to understand the essential thrust of an argument being made, when the terms are so nebulous that they just don’t make sense to some readers?

It could be the best case made ever, the most solidly based statements, but when shielded behind phrases like ‘p2w’ it just turns me off. I look at that and think, rightly, or wrongly, that I am reading the views of someone who has been told what to think on a website, rather than forming their own views.

Do you know why Textspeak such as p2w existed? It was the dark ages of mobile phones, where you were actually charged per digit or letter you texted. That was a -long- time ago. I remember it. You could use most mobile phones as a bludgeoning weapon at that time.
No one is charged per letter on forums. You can type out the full word and not be charged more for doing so. There is no excuse.

This is probably why people don’t get the term. I don’t get it. How can an MMORPG be P2W? How is that even possible? (It isn’t), you can pay for a temporary advantage but… you can’t pay to -Win- That just isn’t possible.

This is why Twitch kids and 4Chan people need to actually make a coherent definition for these terms, as otherwise adults are kind of just going to look at it and go “What the Heck are you talking about? That’s not possible!”

So the terms need defining.

You seem to be pretty cool with the situation, given that you have a Subscription of a duration that by definition was renewed after the Token system was introduced…

So can I ask…

At which point did you decide this was bad? Was it when it became ‘cool’ to bash it?

I mean I’ve asked you this three times so far, and your silence on the matter is deafening…

I’m just curious, is it inability to answer, or hypocrisy?

Do you know what the word ‘Literal’ actually means?

You can’t use a word to mean something factual then state that the factual thing is not possible!

Anyway, Again. You Support it.

Why?

You Just said it was -Literal- What the heck! Make up your mind! Is it Literal or Figurative? Because they are diametrically opposed terms!

I’m not sure the people who created this clumsy and ill defined textspeak abbreviation even understand what it means themselves. I’m even less sure that those who use it do. Especially when it is supposed to be both literal and figurative.

That doesn’t linguistically work.

This Pandaren gets it.

I linked it in this post, you won’t have to look far.

You have said it is both Literal and Figurative.

All I’m getting from this is that people who use the phrase P2W do not have full language comprehension skills. WHAT does the ‘W’ stand for? Also, Who’s definition? Because we’ve seen several here, not even the people who -claim- to hate it, but still back it, are able to give a single, defined, clear definition.

Quelle damned Surprise…

Come on, lets be honest, these people are jokers, there is no single definition of the term, and they all subbed since the thing they say they hated was instituted, so are either lying, or hypocrites.

It’s the same posters as well, have you noticed?

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304

Perhaps they need to change it back.

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I do not reject any definitions, you are the only one that rejects definitions and fragments of it. You are the one that claims the definitions that you are not interested in are wrong and find definitions from the last pages of google search to claim this is the only thing thats right. I even ask you to write your own for like 10 posts now, but you keep mentioning that you already wrote it in fragments over 300 posts. How come it’s so hard to write 2-3 sentences of your definition instead of a wall of text?

Ill humor you: “in online gaming, the practice of buying in-game items that give a player a very big advantage over others”.
https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/pay-to-win first google result, absolutely disregarded by you. Definitely “factually wrong and dumb” because wow boosts don’t give you a very big advantage over others. At best the advantage is minor.

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win second google result does it make you better than everyone else? No.

Discussion of p2w with peoples definitions comes as 3rd result.
https://www.reddit.com/r/truegaming/comments/8w417u/what_is_your_definition_for_pay_to_win/

PTW is used in gaming with the meaning “Pay to Win” to refer to games that allow players to purchase items or abilities (e.g., more powerful weapons, additional health points) that give them an advantage in the game, either over other players or NPCs https://www.cyberdefinitions.com/definitions/NPC.html. 4th - doesn’t apply to world of warcraft, you don’t buy anything that’s more powerful.

How can you be so dense to pick fragments of wikipedia: In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items, downloadable content, or to skip cooldown timers may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise hardly be able to access said items. Such games are called “pay-to-win” (abbreviated as “P2W”) by critics. In general, a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over their non-paying peers. Just look at the first fragment instead.

I am not paying, what advantage do you have over me? Even if you will buy cutting edge you have no advantage over me, I got plenty.

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Cute.

Meanwhile, me: Throwing sacks of coins for mythic BoEs, mythic weapons, and other gear. PvP rating(which I have to earn despite paying for, because they can only carry you so far in the first place without actually playing your char) Achievements, and so on… from Garrisons and Legion tables and playing the AH. (No I never actually bought such things, just making light of your poor argument)

You know, I’ve never paid real money for tokens. All my gold was earned long ago so much ago it’s pointless. Pretty sure you’ve been the one consistently huffing while calling that p2w in the first place. But hey, despite all that gear you bought and all… You have green and grey parses. No 1550 arena achieves despite them being so easy to ‘buy’ or something, the only AOTC you got was g’huun which you definitely got a carry for.

What did you win over me by doing so, exactly?

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100%

It can only (at best) be described as “relative p2w” because the fact remains even if one buys curve etc by definition you will NEVER be in a position where you have an advantage over everyone (the boosters carrying you) and thus exert an advantage only over some players not all.

I’m pretty sure that many definitions of p2w hinge on the idea that you are able to pay for something that nets you an advantage that cannot be replicated or beaten out by real game means.

I’d describe WoW as “p2shortcut” but not pay to win, because your spend will never put you in a position where money > skill because the whole market of boosting relies on people having skill to carry those with money.

Therefore logically speaking skill will always have the edge over money when it comes to “who’s the best”

This is like “pay to win the bronze medal” lol.

If we still define it as pay to win even if we accept it doesn’t necessarily mean you end up having advantage over many others, just the fact you have it over some, does this mean that a game where you can buy a green quality sword at level 1 that is better than the default gear (but worse than than the quests at level 2) with real money is a p2w on the basis it nets you an advantage over other level 1 players only? Seems a bit strange if so.

Ultimately wows “P2W” scene is carried by skilled players, which means if the skill was removed from the equation, the p2w basis would collapse. But if WoW were truly a p2w game, it wouldn’t rely on skilled layers existing surely? For it is money that nets the advantages? Not skill.

Yet at the top of the food chain are always the players most skilled and capable. They’re the ones who even allow boosting to be possible. So how can anyone argue “money buys you anything?” No it doesn’t.
Money buys you whatever the skilled people want it to let you buy. If all the skilled boosters decided in unison to not sell curve, money would no longer net you curve. An odd premise for a p2w game where it’s entirely dependent on a) the skill and b) the willingness of other players for my money to “unlock things”.

Money doesn’t unlock the gear. Skill does. All the money does is use someone else’s skill instead of your own.
And most p2w definitions seem pretty agreed on the fact that it is the “cash alone” that nets you the gains.
Fact remains in WoW, you can have 10 million gold swiped through your card, but if there are no players around to boost you, and none of the raiders sell their BOEs it nets you zero advantages. How is this p2w?
It’s pay2RentSkill.
Your money is only as valuable as other players let it be through their behaviour. Nothing in the game itself lends it this power.

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Imo the issue isn’t so much people boost, it’s a guaranteed thing to happen, especially these days.

It’s the fact that Blizzard show no interest in curbing it.

Trade chat is just so pointless now.

I personally agree with how it harms the game. Average joe sees boost available for heroic or mythic kill…
Why work for it knowing full well some others haven’t?

Then we get this false sense of security as M+ players or raiders or arena, you invite someone who you think has experience then bam, they play like…well turd!

But Blizzard show…imo 0% interest in fixing this game to become a staple MMO again at present.

If these new people at the helm will turn the ship around will help it or not who knows. Only time will tell!

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I personally think there is one thing that gives you an advantage over others, which is gear among peers. One example of that is BoE’s when people compete over raid spots. People do lose raid spots in high end guilds over BoE’s on progress. The other is arena boosts, where you get gear that is not available in your skill bracket by getting a boost. I don’t want to name any guilds, but I know people who bought arena boosts and BoE’s with real money in guilds that are in the hall of fame. For most other intents and purposes calling wow p2w is kinda rubbish.

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Welcome to my world!

Why not? If they’re breaking the rules, they deserve to be punished.

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Because they aren’t breaking any rules buying tokens to buy pvp boosts and on top of that forum rules do not allow naming and shaming.

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Agreed. I still find the definition “amongst peers” falls short of what many mean by this. Because often (especially in the case of PvP or M+ boosting/raid boosting) you can’t access the service unless there are by definition people with superior gear to the content you’re boosted through. They may not be your peers, but I don’t really think we can label a game as “P2W” in its philosophy of using money only nets you an advantage against some players, and never against others (the boosters). Also as said it’s entirely contingent on player skill to even operate as a principle, which means for me, it can’t be p2w, because the “payment” relies on other stuff being true (that boosters exist, that they are skilled enough to boost, and willing to boost) to make the money a “golden ticket”.

My understanding of p2w games is where my money alone is all that’s required to give me an advantage without reliance on other factors. Ie I pay X and get Y benefit. Not I pay X and if and only if Z player is willing, I then get a chance at Y benefit.
Because the fact remains if Z doesn’t exist then my money cannot yield Y benefit, so it is not the game that makes WoW arguably p2w it is player behaviour that does. It is players “selling their skill” or renting it out. The skill is still required to access the gear. You just pay for the privilege of using someone else’s rather than your own.

Similar to having a leather worker make you an item rather than you grinding it yourself. Would we describe someone buying a leather leggo then as p2w? It’s the same thing isn’t it? Shortcutting an effort based process with money (that may be fuelled by RL) but at no point does your money bypass the requirements for the effort to be needed in the first place. It just wasn’t your effort.

To make it clear, let us consider a hypothetical situation where in a server all players have (say) 200ilevel and are equally skilled and capable of doing say m+5 but no higher. They are all capable of doing normal raid, but no higher. All players do these contents and get the gear.
What advantage does the player with money have in this situation? They cannot use it to secure better gear than they ordinarily can, or anyone else. Not with the way WoW works at the moment. The only moment they can start to do that is only if other players become skilled and geared enough to carry them in higher gear than their own m+5 efforts can.

It lends no objective advantage, only a relative one. It’s like a kid buying answers for a maths quiz from someone who did the test prior. It might help him net the grade for maths test he is sitting, but it doesn’t make him the smartest kid at maths in any way shape or form, and it never will, because this kid relies upon other people being better than them to pass their tests. So by definition it can never make him an objective winner. Only a relative winner. It’s a shortcut, not a victory.

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Idk, I think selling ingame money is kinda pay to win especially if prices are really high and there is definitely a large time advantage if you chose to buy tokens but at the same time pretty much every multiplayer game I know has systems that let you skip the grind if you fork out real money. All the shooters have it, all the card games, all the mmos in one form or another, even single player games have it. It’s all about how narrow is the definition or how broad. If you make it broad then wow is pay to win but so is FF14, PoE, ESO and you will rob yourself of a proper way to address what the Korean mmos are doing where you literally buy power weapons, hp and currency.

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Exactly. I don’t think using broad definitions is helpful, because then essentially everything is pay to win.
I look to the Korean MMOs for what I see as pay2win, where my money literally conjures power from thin air, involving no effort or skill by anyone and perhaps granting me power competitive or better with the best geared players in the game.

I’ll make clear I’m not particularly fond of boosting nor have ever used it nor ever will, but I just don’t see it as p2w. I do think In pve it’s a non issue (beyond the advertising) but In pvp I’d prefer stronger action, not because of the items the boostee gets but rather the means to do it, glads stomping in low brackets, totally defiles the spirit of the MMR system. It shouldn’t be possible in a competitive MMR system to group with with people far below you in rating whilst retaining the perks of your highest rating. The whole point is the rating (and people you fight in it) reflects a certain gear and skill level. This is messed up when gladiators in 2.1 gear roam in the 1.4 bracket.

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I disagree. Meaning of a word is a different thing than using proper gramar. Which I try to use but Im aware of miatakes I can make while not knowing about them.

Good advise.

Yeah 100% agree on this one. Its very confusing.

Language and lack of clear definition is main problem in this topic. I was refering to the one I found but I belive there couls be more also “W” technicaly stands for win but in definition I was using it was about adventage so better definition would be p2a but p2w exists too deep in game world to change it imo.

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What a horrible answer. Someone’s narcissism against heroic Sylvanas is completely irrelevant. You can buy MYTHIC sylvanas with gold if that will get you back on-topic.

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And how is that an advantage over me? If you buy mythic sylvanas, how does that affect me in any way? You don’t pug it, no guild will recruit you because of it, there is 0 advantage, 0 win. I’m sorry, but if you can’t kill heroic boss through a tier and need to buy a boost, you don’t have an advantage, you are just pretty bad at the video game. You need all the help you can get. Now instead of crying every day about boosters and curve, try to git gud. Probably will take you the same amount of time invested as flaming on the forums.

The only way mythic sylvanas kill would affect me if another player from my guild got a weapon from her using a boost and started outparsing me because of that. You getting whatever sylvanas cosmetic is irrelevant, it’s like buying a mount from a shop for an exorbitant amount, no advantage. If something doesn’t give you an advantage of any kind, how can it be p2w?

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If u buy sylvanas mythic mount u kinda win :smiley:

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The only thing you ‘win’ is not having to farm it later xD

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Like u farm nzoth mount atm, not even possible no groups becouse to hard combined with 1% :smiley:

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I’ve not really touched old content since the scaling messed things up with the stat squish.

Eventually I’ll have to get round to Nzoth farm but it’s just not high on my to do list atm.

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that is not any win … simply that is what u can do in any other game … simply u can find boosting for money in any game … and i lot of them is forbiden … also u can sell igame curency for money and that is also forbiden … and the fact is is there is on buying gold ingame where ppl selling gold for token and ppl selling token for gold … anyway u can stop some ppl from buying gold and buying boost for money … but u can destroy advantage of this ppl but giving option to everyone and earn money … simply u can ban all this ppl for buying and selling gold but following what all this ppl are doing will just make to lose more money …

real pay to win is when u are literaly buy thing for money … like world of tanks and wolrd of ships where u are u have literaly price for every ship and u cant earn that much ingame money if u are dont buying some thing for money … and there is a lot more examples … try to play this pay to win games and come back to wow than u will see difference

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