You didn’t write down a definition, just a bunch of lose arguments and concepts. I went on the internet, found 3 definitions that do not share your logic from the very first 3 searches. This means majority of people who make those definitions do not follow your logic. Go through the effort. Write it down if you are able. Then we can discuss it. Shouldn’t be hard, you wrote 3 sentences just now.
2 Likes
One argument, one concept, and I did define P2W even more precisely than any P2W definition does, so quit with bs because I know you keep deflecting just to disagree.
Right… let’s examine the evidence then and look at the first page of Google search 
Wikipedia
In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items, downloadable content, or to skip cooldown timers may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise hardly be able to access said items. Such games are called “pay-to-win” (abbreviated as “P2W”) by critics. In general, a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over their non-paying peers. Market research indicates that pay-to-win mechanics are considered much more acceptable by players in China than in Western countries, possibly because Chinese players are more habituated to recurring costs associated with gaming, such as gaming café fees.
Cyber Definitions
PTW is used in gaming with the meaning “Pay to Win” to refer to games that allow players to purchase items or abilities (e.g., more powerful weapons, additional health points) that give them an advantage in the game, either over other players or NPCs
ComputerHope
Pay-to-win , abbreviated as P2W , describes an aspect of a game where players are allowed to get an advantage with real-world currency to purchase in-game items. The pay-to-win structure is prevalent in both multiplayer online games and mobile games.
I said that P2W is about paying real money to obtain something in the game, and so far those sources say the same thing.
I said that items being bought with real money can give you an advantage or you simply can get something which you need to farm for a very long or maybe you wouldn’t be able to get it by yourself and again those sources say the same thing.
I said that P2W is based on a game design/system which allows people to funnel money into the game to buy e.g. gear.
Well, all those sources say that P2W is about paying extra money but to pay extra money you need to have a specific game design that allows it so again those sources imply the existence of such a system.
So how did those sources didn’t agree with me? 
Seems like you are full of crap mate
Now, WoW Token is a system that allows people who are willing to pay extra money to be apple to buy in-game… pretty much everything they want including gear advantage, PvP ranking, M+ rating, Mythic kills, and so on which means WoW is P2W by design 
Funny enough WoWs P2W is even worse than some well knows P2W games where this aspect is only limited to few items and not like in WoW to pretty much the entire game.
I explicitly believe Blizzard allows insane gold inflation because it boosts the gold value of the token, while reducing gold’s real value (meaning the token is much less valuable now than let’s say in Wrath, despite it bringing you much more gold). This creates false perception in the consumer.
The low tier, “average” players won’t be affected much by gold sinks - they’re not the ones swapping their builds between pulls. They aren’t the ones swapping their conduits all the time. Average players just play one build and one covenant/conduit setup and that’s it. They will not be affected by these gold sinks.
This is why by the way, you make the gold sink scale with time - it starts out cheap, and the cost grows exponentially, dropping down by 50% of that cost every week. Like how talent respecs worked in Vanilla. That way, you don’t hurt casual players and you drain gold from the hardcore ones.
The people who would be affected are the top players, who already have plenty of gold.
The overall amount of useless gold in WoW is way too much. Mandatory uses for gold need to be found, and those uses need to target behavior the hardcore partakes in.
As long as gold isn’t drained out of the economy, boosting will continue to grow.
Then i am exceptionel every keystone master every character is almost 245 from me without BOOSTS so ye i am exceptionel then yes.
I like how you care only about the parts of the definitions that support your argument and you still haven’t made your own. You can’t take 1 sentence out of context of a definition and claim this is the definition. The other half is there for a reason. Your argument falls apart when you highlight different parts of the same definitions, which talk about special items and other mechanics that give you an advantage. That’s discrediting regarding your ability to use any semblance of logic. Pick your 3 definitions, against 3 mine, claim mine are wrong because yours are right and only pick fragments from yours.
But this is what I am talking about. You take an extremely broad approach and by that approach you can argue any game that includes microtransactions of any kind is pay to win. New expansion in a competitive shooter with better guns? P2W. New races in Civilization? P2W. Witcher expansion with better swords and mutagens? P2W. Stashes in PoE? PTW. OFC the players you are winning against don’t have to directly compete with you, just like in world of warcraft. I expected nothing and was still disappointed.
PS. Haven’t found computerhope on the first 5 pages of google.
1 Like
I paid 500k for azerite respec at the start of BFA for my guild. I wasn’t happy about it at all.
1 Like
I quoted the essence of what P2W is because the rest of the definition doesn’t change anything about what P2W is so your argument about me nitpicking something is quite frankly dumb.
As for “my” definition, I already said more than 10 times what P2W is, how it came to be, how it works, and so on so if you were actually honest about this argument you wouldn’t make excuses 24/7 while spinning in your wheel of denial.
You implied that all the definitions say something else while the 3 main definitions (not only those) say pretty much the same thing so if someone here falls apart it’s you and your trainwreck of excuses.
You didn’t pick any tho, and those which you reject, well they are saying the same thing, so you are the only one here without any definition of anything In fact, you only managed to make a vague argument about P2W being subjective but then you completely ignored all the existing definitions which are pretty consistent about what P2W is 
What broad approach if I specified what P2W is down to the type of game design a game needs to have to be considerate P2W. You can’t be more precise than that and no I wouldn’t be able to argue that any game with microtransactions is P2W because there is plenty of game which have Cash Shops but all they sell are cosmetics which in no way impact player performance against other players or NPC.
So, in the end, it’s your argument is falling apart because there is nothing that actually agrees with you 
Are you seriously trying to claim wow is p2w when in order to even get boosted, other players have to had already won by clearing the content and gearing up to such a degree that they can take dead weight with them?
P2W is not only about paying to get boosted, it’s also about buying gear, shortcuts, and various player power modyfing items/abilities.
I can easily swipe my credit card and get myself mythic loot which is something 99% of the players won’t even get without paying extra money 
For a factual start currently nobody on horde or ali is boosting Mythic SoD as guilds are still busy on horde getting all there rota mounts and BIS and ali only have 20guilds with 10/10 cleared .
If the big boosting groups were to do it they would charge at least 1 million per boss so that’s 10 million.
Current wow token is 274,689 so lets do some maths .
10 million divided by 274,689 = 36.5 tokens x £17 = £619 roughly are you honestly going to spend that much with your credit card on pixels .
To be factual 3% of the current player base will clear 10/10 mythic but there will be about 32% that do about 4/10 at least .
If you are going to talk about boosting please do the decent thing and speak in actual figures and logic not fundamentally flawed fallacious arguments.
1 Like
Heres the thing though, a lot of the boost groups don’t just advertise the price, they also tell you how many wow tokens it is xD.
They’re literally counting on the fact that you’re going to pay for a token for the boost.
They have whole communities forming boost groups now, because it’s just that lucrative.
Then on top of that, you have gold sellers providing boosts. So now, you’re buying tokens, paying the gold sellers with gold bought via tokens, and then that gold is sold on their websites.
It’s literally a double win for gold sellers, and more profitable than botting in the long run.
You don’t get to use some idiotic term like ‘Copium’ and claim to have a valid argument. How about you come up with your own?
‘Copium’…Jaysis, the moment you see that term you know you are staring intellectual dishonesty in the face.
Also, how do you still have a sub, when you clearly have resubbed whilst tokens and ‘P2W’ was a thing?
I Smell Hypocrisy.
So Hang on then. What does the ‘W’ stand for, in P2W?
I think there’s too many weird definitions going on that don’t make sense, but yeah, just answer me that one, what does the ‘W’ stand for?
So in other words…not to be taken seriously? OK, Good, glad we sorted that out.
When has it ever not been thus?
I do not think you are in a position to critique other people’s wording. Even if English is not your first language, which is a possibility, and understandable, ‘ppl’ is not a word.
Don’t use terms like that, and -then- try to criticise other people’s understanding of the meaning of words.
Um…Yeah, that is actually the definition of rational thought. There is no evidence, there is no logical reasoning, just silly 4chan and Twitch terms, so all that is left, is to take things literally (Using the word in it’s correct sense) as a basis for forming a rational view on it.
Yes. You have just described rational thought.
In that case, whoever these people are, inventing these terms, should use language correctly. I mean it doesn’t even make sense as an acronym!
How is anyone supposed to understand the essential thrust of an argument being made, when the terms are so nebulous that they just don’t make sense to some readers?
It could be the best case made ever, the most solidly based statements, but when shielded behind phrases like ‘p2w’ it just turns me off. I look at that and think, rightly, or wrongly, that I am reading the views of someone who has been told what to think on a website, rather than forming their own views.
Do you know why Textspeak such as p2w existed? It was the dark ages of mobile phones, where you were actually charged per digit or letter you texted. That was a -long- time ago. I remember it. You could use most mobile phones as a bludgeoning weapon at that time.
No one is charged per letter on forums. You can type out the full word and not be charged more for doing so. There is no excuse.
This is probably why people don’t get the term. I don’t get it. How can an MMORPG be P2W? How is that even possible? (It isn’t), you can pay for a temporary advantage but… you can’t pay to -Win- That just isn’t possible.
This is why Twitch kids and 4Chan people need to actually make a coherent definition for these terms, as otherwise adults are kind of just going to look at it and go “What the Heck are you talking about? That’s not possible!”
So the terms need defining.
You seem to be pretty cool with the situation, given that you have a Subscription of a duration that by definition was renewed after the Token system was introduced…
So can I ask…
At which point did you decide this was bad? Was it when it became ‘cool’ to bash it?
I mean I’ve asked you this three times so far, and your silence on the matter is deafening…
I’m just curious, is it inability to answer, or hypocrisy?
Do you know what the word ‘Literal’ actually means?
You can’t use a word to mean something factual then state that the factual thing is not possible!
Anyway, Again. You Support it.
Why?
You Just said it was -Literal- What the heck! Make up your mind! Is it Literal or Figurative? Because they are diametrically opposed terms!
I’m not sure the people who created this clumsy and ill defined textspeak abbreviation even understand what it means themselves. I’m even less sure that those who use it do. Especially when it is supposed to be both literal and figurative.
That doesn’t linguistically work.
This Pandaren gets it.
I linked it in this post, you won’t have to look far.
You have said it is both Literal and Figurative.
All I’m getting from this is that people who use the phrase P2W do not have full language comprehension skills. WHAT does the ‘W’ stand for? Also, Who’s definition? Because we’ve seen several here, not even the people who -claim- to hate it, but still back it, are able to give a single, defined, clear definition.
Quelle damned Surprise…
Come on, lets be honest, these people are jokers, there is no single definition of the term, and they all subbed since the thing they say they hated was instituted, so are either lying, or hypocrites.
It’s the same posters as well, have you noticed?
4 Likes
Perhaps they need to change it back.
I do not reject any definitions, you are the only one that rejects definitions and fragments of it. You are the one that claims the definitions that you are not interested in are wrong and find definitions from the last pages of google search to claim this is the only thing thats right. I even ask you to write your own for like 10 posts now, but you keep mentioning that you already wrote it in fragments over 300 posts. How come it’s so hard to write 2-3 sentences of your definition instead of a wall of text?
Ill humor you: “in online gaming, the practice of buying in-game items that give a player a very big advantage over others”.
https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/pay-to-win first google result, absolutely disregarded by you. Definitely “factually wrong and dumb” because wow boosts don’t give you a very big advantage over others. At best the advantage is minor.
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win second google result does it make you better than everyone else? No.
Discussion of p2w with peoples definitions comes as 3rd result.
https://www.reddit.com/r/truegaming/comments/8w417u/what_is_your_definition_for_pay_to_win/
PTW is used in gaming with the meaning “Pay to Win” to refer to games that allow players to purchase items or abilities (e.g., more powerful weapons, additional health points) that give them an advantage in the game, either over other players or NPCs https://www.cyberdefinitions.com/definitions/NPC.html. 4th - doesn’t apply to world of warcraft, you don’t buy anything that’s more powerful.
How can you be so dense to pick fragments of wikipedia: In some games, players who are willing to pay for special items, downloadable content, or to skip cooldown timers may be able to gain an advantage over those playing for free who might otherwise hardly be able to access said items. Such games are called “pay-to-win” (abbreviated as “P2W”) by critics. In general, a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over their non-paying peers. Just look at the first fragment instead.
I am not paying, what advantage do you have over me? Even if you will buy cutting edge you have no advantage over me, I got plenty.
2 Likes
Cute.
Meanwhile, me: Throwing sacks of coins for mythic BoEs, mythic weapons, and other gear. PvP rating(which I have to earn despite paying for, because they can only carry you so far in the first place without actually playing your char) Achievements, and so on… from Garrisons and Legion tables and playing the AH. (No I never actually bought such things, just making light of your poor argument)
You know, I’ve never paid real money for tokens. All my gold was earned long ago so much ago it’s pointless. Pretty sure you’ve been the one consistently huffing while calling that p2w in the first place. But hey, despite all that gear you bought and all… You have green and grey parses. No 1550 arena achieves despite them being so easy to ‘buy’ or something, the only AOTC you got was g’huun which you definitely got a carry for.
What did you win over me by doing so, exactly?
3 Likes
100%
It can only (at best) be described as “relative p2w” because the fact remains even if one buys curve etc by definition you will NEVER be in a position where you have an advantage over everyone (the boosters carrying you) and thus exert an advantage only over some players not all.
I’m pretty sure that many definitions of p2w hinge on the idea that you are able to pay for something that nets you an advantage that cannot be replicated or beaten out by real game means.
I’d describe WoW as “p2shortcut” but not pay to win, because your spend will never put you in a position where money > skill because the whole market of boosting relies on people having skill to carry those with money.
Therefore logically speaking skill will always have the edge over money when it comes to “who’s the best”
This is like “pay to win the bronze medal” lol.
If we still define it as pay to win even if we accept it doesn’t necessarily mean you end up having advantage over many others, just the fact you have it over some, does this mean that a game where you can buy a green quality sword at level 1 that is better than the default gear (but worse than than the quests at level 2) with real money is a p2w on the basis it nets you an advantage over other level 1 players only? Seems a bit strange if so.
Ultimately wows “P2W” scene is carried by skilled players, which means if the skill was removed from the equation, the p2w basis would collapse. But if WoW were truly a p2w game, it wouldn’t rely on skilled layers existing surely? For it is money that nets the advantages? Not skill.
Yet at the top of the food chain are always the players most skilled and capable. They’re the ones who even allow boosting to be possible. So how can anyone argue “money buys you anything?” No it doesn’t.
Money buys you whatever the skilled people want it to let you buy. If all the skilled boosters decided in unison to not sell curve, money would no longer net you curve. An odd premise for a p2w game where it’s entirely dependent on a) the skill and b) the willingness of other players for my money to “unlock things”.
Money doesn’t unlock the gear. Skill does. All the money does is use someone else’s skill instead of your own.
And most p2w definitions seem pretty agreed on the fact that it is the “cash alone” that nets you the gains.
Fact remains in WoW, you can have 10 million gold swiped through your card, but if there are no players around to boost you, and none of the raiders sell their BOEs it nets you zero advantages. How is this p2w?
It’s pay2RentSkill.
Your money is only as valuable as other players let it be through their behaviour. Nothing in the game itself lends it this power.
2 Likes
Imo the issue isn’t so much people boost, it’s a guaranteed thing to happen, especially these days.
It’s the fact that Blizzard show no interest in curbing it.
Trade chat is just so pointless now.
I personally agree with how it harms the game. Average joe sees boost available for heroic or mythic kill…
Why work for it knowing full well some others haven’t?
Then we get this false sense of security as M+ players or raiders or arena, you invite someone who you think has experience then bam, they play like…well turd!
But Blizzard show…imo 0% interest in fixing this game to become a staple MMO again at present.
If these new people at the helm will turn the ship around will help it or not who knows. Only time will tell!
I personally think there is one thing that gives you an advantage over others, which is gear among peers. One example of that is BoE’s when people compete over raid spots. People do lose raid spots in high end guilds over BoE’s on progress. The other is arena boosts, where you get gear that is not available in your skill bracket by getting a boost. I don’t want to name any guilds, but I know people who bought arena boosts and BoE’s with real money in guilds that are in the hall of fame. For most other intents and purposes calling wow p2w is kinda rubbish.
Welcome to my world!
Why not? If they’re breaking the rules, they deserve to be punished.
1 Like
Because they aren’t breaking any rules buying tokens to buy pvp boosts and on top of that forum rules do not allow naming and shaming.