WOTLK dungeons after dungeon finder

[Jazem-firemaw]

@Vanillataur-nethergarde-keep

Yes, I think Wrath Dungeon finder was fun. I could keep on Questing while a group was made for me.

@Vanillataur-nethergarde-keep

And some became BFF - after spending more than 4 hours wiping and fighting in Auchindoun you can not NOT be friends afterwards
And best of all. When the dungeon has ended BAM I was back to where I left off.
I had more fun in dungeons in the last half of Wrath than in the previous Vanilla, BC and first half Wrath rolled into one.

Couldn’t agree more with this.

@Terres-ravenholdt

@Krutoj-lakeshire

The RDF might not encourage social interactions, but neither does traditional group building. 90% of random dungeons in TBC Classic being without any social interaction at all proves this.

Only difference is that I don’t pull numbers out of my rear. I don’t know the numbers (and neither do you)

He’s not wrong though. Sure, numbers might not be exact obviously, but it’s not far off. I’d argue it’s as high as 95% of all dungeon runs I’ve had are completely silent (apart from the “hi” and “thx bb”).

Like many have tried to explain before: us, the players, and how we play, have already changed a long time ago. There isn’t any undoing it. Forcing on us a wotlk with no RDF (amongst other things) wont take us back in time and “fix” that.

@Terres-ravenholdt

Real ID is a function of Battlenet, though… but it’s pointless to argue about. I’ll freely admit that if they implement a dungeon finder it makes sense to allow people to group up cross server as well even if that is against #nochanges.

To be fair, that is a heck of a lot smaller change to make then removing RDF all in all. A rather tiny change that, along with RDF, would benefit the players and their socialising as they could make friends cross server as well.

@Terres-ravenholdt

So I did some research and Warmane and from what I can tell the entire private server is about the size of one of our high/full populated realms in Classic (if maybe even less). I highly doubt you had access to cross-server grouping whilst on a private server, which means the Dungeon Finder was local. So when you queue up, chances are you’ll recognize the people you end up grouped with, no?

If you claim that server to be as big as for example Firemaw in classic you’re dead wrong. There is no server community on that server because of one simple fact: it is too big. You don’t come across all that many unfamiliar people that you recognize multiple times.
It is basically cross-server built into one server. It is that big.

[Triva-theradras]

@Meristu-silvermoon

Thing is so far the only argument against RDF is "Social Interaction™ ", which is nice but completely useless argument, because you suddenly wont change mentality of people by removing one random thing from 15 years old game …

Anti RDF-voters actually want the game to be as bad and unenjoyable as possible for casuals/non social players, that just want to play the game. By keeping them out or forcing them to play less, they have more like minded hardcore MMORPG players on their servers, which they think is a good thing. Its understandable from their perspective, but against the wishes of a huge part of the wow community, that just want to play the game.

There is not much to it regarding arguments, besides crossrealm matchmaking. These players are simply like the definition of toxic gatekeepers. Since there arent really good arguments against RDF besides their feeling that gatekeeping is a good thing for their social experience, it is nearly impossible to have a meaningful debate.

[Terres-ravenholdt (Terres)]

@Jazem-firemaw

There is no server community on that server because of one simple fact: it is too big. You don’t come across all that many unfamiliar people that you recognize multiple times.
It is basically cross-server built into one server. It is that big.

You’re talking as though this is a problem. Is it a problem? Is it not good to have a massive pool of players to draw from so you can get into your instances faster? Anyways, you seem to admit that the larger the player pool the more difficult it is for a community to form. Something I find myself agreeing with!

However, one puzzle piece does not quite fit. Krutoj said he was playing on a mostly dead server and apparently he was grouping up with randoms all the time. How that works I have no idea. Terrible short-term memory?

@Triva-theradras

Anti RDF-voters actually want the game to be as bad and unenjoyable as possible for casuals/non social players, that just want to play the game.

I’d describe myself as a casual. I am not part of a big raiding guild nor am I competitive in pvp – I play bits of everything. I want the content I play to matter, which is why I’m fully on board with Blizzard’s plans for WLK. As for non-social players… yes. If you want to be non-social in an MMO go play retail or any other more modern MMO. Classic should not appeal to those who seek a single-player experience.

@Triva-theradras

These players are simply like the definition of toxic gatekeepers. Since there arent really good arguments against RDF besides their feeling that gatekeeping is a good thing for their social experience, it is nearly impossible to have a meaningful debate.

The fact that you can’t recognize that the opposite side has “any good arguments” just shows how unwilling you are to actually debate this topic. I am staunchly opposed to the Dungeon Finder. I view it as being very damaging to the social aspect of the game. Nevertheless I can see the benefits of the Dungeon Finder (I’m fairly certain I’ve mentioned some of them in this thread). I can understand why some people want the LFD even if I disagree with it. Can you understand why some people don’t want LFD? Without demonizing them?

[Triva-theradras]

@Terres-ravenholdt

I’d describe myself as a casual. I am not part of a big raiding guild nor am I competitive in pvp – I play bits of everything. I want the content I play to matter, which is why I’m fully on board with Blizzard’s plans for WLK. As for non-social players… yes. If you want to be non-social in an MMO go play retail or any other more modern MMO. Classic should not appeal to those who seek a single-player experience.

It doesnt matter what you describe yourself as. RDF is meant for players that dont have social bounds ingame and just want to play the game without much of social interaction. Wotlk was made for players in mind that you want to keep out.

@Terres-ravenholdt

I view it as being very damaging to the social aspect of the game.

Yes thats the argument and where it ends. I acknowledge that, but there isnt more to it besides the crossrealm argument.

@Terres-ravenholdt

Can you understand why some people don’t want LFD? Without demonizing them?

I understand it, like I understand people who dont want immigrants in their country or poor people in the supermarket or to have to look at old people a the pool, because they are unsightly. Same level of argument.

[Jazem-firemaw]

@Terres-ravenholdt

Is it not good to have a massive pool of players to draw from so you can get into your instances faster?

This is what I am saying yes. The bigger the pool the better. Something RDF would help greatly with. More for people on small/deadish servers then us on bigger servers, but even us it would help greatly.

@Terres-ravenholdt

If you want to be non-social in an MMO go play retail or any other more modern MMO.

This is the worst of the worst argument.
First of all, we’re not anti-social simply because we want RDF in the game.
And even if that had been true, we could simply turn it around and tell you to stay in your social vanilla classic. Vanilla classic and wotlk classic is not the same thing (even though Blizzard is trying their best to turn woltk into vanilla).

@Terres-ravenholdt

I view it as being very damaging to the social aspect of the game.

As I, and many others, have been trying to tell you:

@Jazem-firemaw

us, the players, and how we play, have already changed a long time ago. There isn’t any undoing it. Forcing on us a wotlk with no RDF (amongst other things) wont take us back in time and “fix” that.

I’d say that originally it boils down to:

@Krutoj-lakeshire

a general change of society and therefore playerbase?

which in turn boils down to the easy access of numerous social internet platforms.

[Terres-ravenholdt (Terres)]

@Triva-theradras

I understand it, like I understand people who dont want immigrants in their country or poor people in the supermarket or to have to look at old people a the pool, because they are unsightly. Same level of argument.

Well, thanks for proving my point. You really can’t show any understanding without demonizing, which means you don’t understand. And your comparison is ridiculous. Are you bunching me up with the alt-right as well, because of my preference in a video game?

@Jazem-firemaw

The bigger the pool the better. Something RDF would help greatly with.

It isn’t necessarily better. Cross-server isn’t inherently good, even if it does expand the player pool. Cross-server is highly problematic when it comes to a game’s ability to create a social atmosphere.

Consider pvp. When was the last time you made a friend through random battlegrounds? I am not saying that it is impossible, just that it is very improbable. For as long as I can remember the BG-chat has always been rather toxic. Things go well? GG EZ. Things go wrong? Everyone’s an idiot. No one is held accountable because, well, its part and parcel for BGs that most of us have come to accept.

Compare this to World pvp. Another “dead” aspect of the game. Yet think back to how it was before the times of server sharding. On my server (Ravenholdt), the world pvp scene was fairly active throughout both WLK and Cataclysm. The server forums were quite alive as well with people posting pvp-related threads and challenges. We had dedicated World pvp guilds like Zylos Hand, Tides of Misery, the Grey Company, Dark Saints etc. The banter was alive and well and people who wanted to get involved in World pvp would get to know the server celebrities.

My point now is not that World pvp is an active thing in Classic. On the contrary, seems people are content to roll on one-sided pvp servers for the sake of convenience. My point is that it was the server limitations (i.e. no cross-server) that gave rise to these things in the first place. To summarize it even further, my argument is that cross-server is not inherently good and there are legitimate reasons to oppose it. End statement.

[Triva-theradras]

@Terres-ravenholdt

Well, thanks for proving my point. You really can’t show any understanding without demonizing, which means you don’t understand. And your comparison is ridiculous. Are you bunching me up with the alt-right as well, because of my preference in a video game?

Its actually funny, because I totally get you, but you only think your means to keep players from playing the game are more justified than my (exaggerated) examples. In the end its still very similar in its reasoning.

[Jazem-firemaw]

@Terres-ravenholdt

To summarize it even further, my argument is that cross-server is not inherently good and there are legitimate reasons to oppose it.

I would have agreed with you, if it were like 12-14 years ago. But with the current state of the game and the change in peoples (way we socialize and/or behave) I’d say the issues you have with it is already here, since years ago. Couple that with all the crap that are going on on the larger servers (the massive amount of GDKP (with RMT involved) and boost sales (let’s see how well blizz actually handles that one) and I’d even argue that RDF is not only wanted by many but infact needed for the sake of the game.

[Meristu-silvermoon]

@Meristu-silvermoon

This is true, and I would fully agree with you … if this was discussion 15 years ago … removing LFD now will only make the game worse … it wont suddenly magically bring back Harambe and fix society, people have changed as much as the game …

Bro I know we are both big brain draenei but stop copying my comments xD

[Jazem-firemaw]

Lol sorry about that, didn’t even realize they were so alike

[Krutoj-lakeshire]

Ok I can’t leave this uncommented.

@Terres-ravenholdt

However, one puzzle piece does not quite fit. Krutoj said he was playing on a mostly dead server and apparently he was grouping up with randoms all the time. How that works I have no idea. Terrible short-term memory?

You do realise, that on a small server with 1500 players you would need over 300 dungeon runs, to have ran with every player once? And then most players have like 5 Twinks.
There were a few players I kept seeing multiple times in dungeons. But most of the time it were 4 completely new toons, or some, I’ve already forgot, because we didn’t have any meaningful interaction.

I’ve tried to stay in contact with players, but it didn’t work very well, because it usually was one sided. Obviously they didn’t really care about social interactions. And so I stopped trying at some point, because for me the social interactions outside of the guild aren’t as important either.
In dungeons I just want to get my stuff done. If I feel like taking about anything I do it with the guild.

Again you don’t know the community. You know the players in your social circle. Every player, that ran random a lot and I mean real random with 4 random players and not just premade plus 1 or 2 randoms, will have made the same experience, that the community doesn’t value and engage into social interactions, with a few exceptions of course.

@Terres-ravenholdt

If you want to be non-social in an MMO go play retail or any other more modern MMO.

We don’t want to be non-social. We are just social in different ways than you. Is it so hard to understand? I don’t need to be friends with every stranger I run dungeons with. If a conversation occurs is cool, if we get friends it’s cool too. But that’s not what I am looking for in dungeons. In dungeons I want to get stuff done.
My social interactions happen with the guild or sometimes in the world. That’s where I want to have social interactions.

And it’s pretty pretentious to say: “Go play different games if you don’t play like I do.”
There are as many ways to play the game, as there are players and no way is wrong, unless you just troll and insult people or something like this.

[Terres-ravenholdt (Terres)]

You say that I am the one that only play with friends and people in my social circle and then you say stuff like this:

@Krutoj-lakeshire

In dungeons I just want to get my stuff done. If I feel like taking about anything I do it with the guild.

And I’d say that’s the exact same mindset I had in retail. There was never much point in trying to talk with people whilst running with the Dungeon Finder because 1: they would rarely be very social and 2: you would likely never meet them again and 3: there really is no reason to talk when everyone knows what to do / there’s almost no risk of failing.

“In dungeons I Just want to get my stuff done” sounds exactly like the retail mindset. It does not sound like you’re playing for the fun of it, you’re playing for the rewards and other players are just a means to an end. The playerbase has changed? Well, sounds to me like you’re very much part of that problem. My experience in Classic has been one that’s been very social with many people that I had previously never met. How do you think I got into my social circle if not for the fact that I interacted with people?

[Krutoj-lakeshire]

There is no “Retail-mindset” or “Classic-mindset” it’s just players playing the game differently. And who are you to judge, who belongs where?

Btw I’ve noticed that a lot of players of Classic are actually playing retail too. I can’t make an estimate how many, because players didn’t have it written on their forehead. But it’s not just a few. So the separation of Classic and Retail never was as clear as you make it out to be. Maybe it was in your social circle, but not in the general community.

I am definitely playing for fun. The things you like just aren’t fun for me. I have a different understanding of fun.
Trying to build a dungeon group for hours and still having to disband it in the end, without going anywhere just isn’t fun for me.
And even if it works out, it’s not fun to me, to just stand around doing nothing but spamming LFG for hours, just to do a 30 min dungeon. It’s also not fun for me to have a shallow conversation with people I don’t know, in a dungeon, just for conversations sake.
The RDF gives me the freedom to actually spend more time with fun stuff and actually playing the game.

And again it’s a completely different group dynamic if you run completely random or just with friends and 1 or 2 randoms.
If you conversate with your friends, people are more likely to join that conversation, than to start a conversation in a quite group. Of course you will have a more social experiences in dungeons this way.

To me all your arguments read like: “I want everyone to play the game like I do, so I can have more fun.” And in my eyes this is a very selfish take.
What I am trying to say is, that I want us all to be able to play as we want. You fear, that if I play as I want it will destroy your way of playing. But that isn’t true. I tell you for a fact, that you can see both ways coexisting on private servers. So if it works there why not in WotLK Classic? And then you make arguments about how you’ve experienced something different in retail. But even if that’s true, you can’t just assume, that the community in retail is like it is just because of the RDF. A tool, that is basically obsolete in retail. There are different reasons, why the retail community is as it is. I could give you my guesses, but that’s irrelevant when discussing WotLK Classic.
It’s just wrong to say the RDF will destroy the community and there is plenty of proof. There are a lot of games, that have RDF like tools and great communities. There are WotLK private servers, that basically run the exact game, we are about to receive with an RDF and it works for fans of the RDF and for fans of traditional group building alike.
So I can prove that the RDF isn’t the end of the world. But you keep saying this is nonsense, and don’t prove your statement. Or well you prove it with either 12 year old experiences or experiences in a game that is so radically different from WotLK, that you just can’t blame all the changes in the community on this one till, that isn’t even used by that community anymore.

If you say the RDF destroys the community, this statement can be refuted by a single case, where an RDF or a similar tool exists and the community is not “destroyed”.
In order to prove your point it’s not enough to point out one game with the RDF and a broken community, because there can be multiple other factors. You would have to prove that every game, that implemented an RDF like tool had a broken community afterwards.

But I am getting tired of it. Discussing with you is like discussing with people, that didn’t want TV, because it would kill the radio.
And comparing WotLK Classic to retail and blaming the RDF for the differences in the community, is as if those anti-TV guys would have travelled to a parallel universe, where people are all hooked up to machines like in matrix and then they say: “See? Nobody is listening to radio. I told you TV would kill it.”

At no point you even tried to look at the RDF objectively. You’ve already made up your mind a long time ago and now you just see the things that support your theory. Even if they are objectively wrong.
That’s why arguing with you is a lost cause.

[Ereniedh-blackrock]

@Vanillataur-nethergarde-keep

Could this be caused by all classes now having stuns and interrupts?

@Vanillataur-nethergarde-keep

Am I trying to make what look bad?

Do you think its bad that all classes have forms of cc and interrupts? Because that what it looked like.

If yes, i was trying to say that it is still diverse among all classes

@Vanillataur-nethergarde-keep

things like simple single stuns, aoe stuns, aoe roots, treants / earth ele to taunt, binding shot, ring of peace and so on.

only proving to me that every class now acrtually do have stuns and interrups at their disposal. You’re in short arguing for my point here.

If you read my second sentence here, you will see its actually not that simplified

@Ereniedh-blackrock

Not every class is and feels the same like you imagine, they are all quite different and excel in different situations

[Vanillataur-nethergarde-keep]

Yes I find it bad that all classes have all abilities.

@Ereniedh-blackrock

Not every class is and feels the same like you imagine, they are all quite different and excel in different situations

DOn’t know why you keep repeating this - it’s an opinion, not an argument, and you cannot know how I imagine all classes in Retail - which I don’t (except for boring) as I do not play Retail.
And you’re still arguing FOR my point: CCs and split pulls being necessary in BC exactly because not all classes have all abilities.

[Ereniedh-blackrock]

@Vanillataur-nethergarde-keep

it’s an opinion, not an argument

Its not my opinion that classes have different strengths and shine in different situations, that is simply a fact how it is in the game right now and been for a while.
How can you even know that classes are boring or all the same if you dont even play it?

Just because every class has some form of cc doesnt mean they are boring or similar to each other. I dont know how you see that arguing for your point

[Vanillataur-nethergarde-keep]

@Ereniedh-blackrock

ust because every class has some form of cc doesnt mean they are boring or similar to each other. I dont know how you see that arguing for your point

Why do you keep on telling me that the classes are not the same? It’s not an argument! and I never said they were.

PLUS the thing we were discussing is: Why did people in Wrat use CC and split pulls instead of interrups and stuns

• I said that this just possibly might have been caused by not all classes back in Wrath even having stuns/ interrupts as opposed to Retail.
• And you tell me in plain text that this is actually the case by listing up the different forms of stuns/interrupts existing today.
• Ergo Point proven.
• Players in Retail use stuns/interrupts because they all have them.
• Players back in Wrath used CC and split pulls as well as stuns / interrupts exactly bcause all classes did not havbe stuns/interrupts. This was what I asked in the first place:

@Vanillataur-nethergarde-keep

Could this be caused by all classes now having stuns and interrupts?

Point proven.

And here I stop, as I do not want to waste my time discussing your idea of my perception of classes in Retail - what was NOT the subject of the disuussion at all.