How is OVERWATCH pay to win?
The only thing you can buy there are cosmetics. Same in D4 afaik.
muted and flagged nice insults and you are not worth speaking to 
good day.
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I fail to see how people cant see the issue with P2W.
There is absolutely no problem with using real $$ to buy stuff. Both in-game and in RL. Not everyone can have a Ferrari. Not everyone can live in a mansion.
The problem with P2W and WHY its tied to player power is because it can affect GAMEPLAY.
And that is an important aspect.
Absurd example : If you could buy special power with $$ you would find that if you DONT buy it, nobody will invite you to PuG groups.
And THAT is a problem. Because you cant play the game if they attach player power to $$$.
And infact, things like that already happen with legendaries and ilvl. Imagine if you block people from getting those items behind a paywall.
HOWEVER… in no universe will ANYONE bar you from inviting you to a group based on transmogs alone.
THEREFORE… hold it !!! Its NOT P2W to allow mogs to be bought with $$$… Because it does NOT affect gameplay.
Simply put, some people have more expendable income than you. Want more mogs, get a better job and pay for them. I prefer to spend my money on my stamp collection (for real).
Its just another hobby.
EZ…
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Read all of Jito’s posts in this thread please. I wrote three or four long ones too.
At this point everything is starting all over again.
I wonder how many of us here buy tons of tokens and buy boosts and for that reason feel like we have to argue one way or another. By the way, that would be totally fine, it is 2024.
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I have read them.
I don’t understand how cosmetics would be pay to win. They offer you absolutely no advantage.
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I don’t get why people have to become hostile towards each other over this topic.
You either think WoW is P2W or you don’t. Simple.
I don’t consider it P2W, but I do consider it Pay2PlayLess. I have no issues with it being that.
No arguments that have been put forth by people with opposing opinions, have made me reconsider my stance. And that’s fine. We don’t have to agree.
The only way to get a very clear answer in a debate like this is to very precisely define the parameters of the argument.
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Your whole argument hinges on the fact that people can buy boosts. People buy boosts because they are too lazy/bad to get the rewards from hign end play aka the achievements. You literally are arguing that is the “win” they are paying for.
Also
It’s not a form of winning in DI, it is winning. You go into DI and you buy all the whatevers so your BiS gear drops, then you go into the Arena and you 1 shot people. The mid-high rattings were literally called the “whale leagues” in DI by the community.
So lets take a look what happens in WoW when you do the same. You buy all the boosts and you get insane luck to get all your BiS items from the vault at max level. Ok now what, well you see it’s not max level because you still need aspect crests which you get from… you guessed it hign end content, which you are not getting invites to because people can see that you are boosted or you are getting a swift kick because your skill level don’t match your ilvl and difficulty level. But hey you bough all the boosts right you have all the crest, you are fully BiS-ed out and yet you are still dying to the tank frontals and you are still doing healer numbers of DPS. And thats PvE. Let’s take a look at PvP, you go in with your BiS geared character aaaaand you get CC locked into oblivion. Great wins all around.
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Since you pay to play so it is actually pay to pay less also.
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If player A is doing the grind his progression/score/rating will reflect his efforts, Yes if player A has only done +5s he is getting rejected to +10s, but if he decides to sign up for +5s, +6s and bellow he will probably get invited.
If player B buys all the +10s he is getting rejected even in +5 because people can see that he is boosted.
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The argument “WoW is P2W” because you can buy boosts…is the same as saying that a lazy couch potato can suddenly outrun an Olympic running champion. All he has to do is to swipe his 
and buy the most expensive running shoes he can get…am I right? 
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No, because you’re paying the same for a sub whether you play 1 hour or 250 hours.
Also; if you’re paying money for services such as a level boost and whatnot, you’re paying more, in addition to the amount you’re already paying (sub).
To me it feels very contrary; paying more to play less, while you’re already paying to even have the ability to play.
But I understand the argument of: ‘you’re paying to exclusively (or at least primarily) play the parts of the game that you want to play’.
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Gad, this cesspool is still going? Honestly surprised that this hasnt been deleted yet.
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I agree and thank god for that. Nobody gives a damn about who you are or what titles or gear or rio or mounts you got. Everybody is playing the game on single mode and treat the other players like npcs. Sure, theres people who play with their friends and have fun , such as I do at times, but thats a small % of my WoW experience, most of the times, most of us, play solo
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Thats not relevant though… He is still buying his way to a +10 when he is not capable of doing it by himself?
And I have seen SO many boosted people being invited to both raids, M+ and RBGs where you notice it after the run due to their performance.
The whole “P2W” does NOT equate to you paying to be the best player in the game… It solely correlates to you gaining power through your wallet that others would have to grind to get. I.e. when opening your wallet on a fresh 70 and buying Mythic raid boost, gives you the instant end game gameplay, that other players have to grind their way up to.
It doesn’t mean you all of a sudden become a world first raider…
Buying PVP boosts to get the weapon enchant doesn’t mean you all of a sudden become Cdew, it just means your wallet breaks a barrier for you
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I do not pay and so I do not win. I can not level the 70… If I win, then I did the paying .
This thread makes me wonder if people take the saying “money helps you win in life” literally too? So the one who wins is first on the podium? What does he win? Does he beat life? Or is he able to do whatever he wants and thus has a huge advantage over those who do not? And we are just, for the sake of brevity, calling it “winning”?
It is SO obvious that the “win” word is a shorthand here, meant to be taken in its proper context, which is an MMORPG. Winning = advantage, just like time = money.
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Exactly! The only counter argument so far in this thread I’ve seen has been “But I am better than the guy I saw yesterday, who was obviously boosted? So how did he win??”
In that sense, nothing really is P2W as long as someone is better than you, smarter than you, faster than you… if we take it to the extreme, that means P2W can only exist for 1 person, everyone that is not nr. 1 did not win, so therefor P2W does not exist in any form… That’s what I called out when people started using anecdotal examples to undermine the arugment
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Or they appeal to how it is impossible to “beat” a game like WoW, again displaying their ineptitude to use the term in context. “Beating WoW” means achieving whichever goals you set yourself. And swiping a credit card helps you achieve that.
In essence, WoW is P2W.
I am seriously wondering whether token buying and boost buying is so rampant these days that people are “forced” to argue a certain way not to feel ashamed of themselves. Which I think is funny because I do not think in 2024 it is a shameful thing to do. It is absolutely beside the point being discussed here.
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Argument for PayToWin you can not play this game if you do not Pay , if you wish do the competion . For level 20 , they tell you that you are not allowed to level more . How will you compete if you can not enter in the dungeon ? No raid group can join me even if they WantThis , they say I am too Low in level . Obvious , yes you must pay to win
I think it’s a mix of this, and people feeling some sort of “pride” that they themselves have not bought a boost, and therefor see themselves as better players… “I can make X gold myself in 1 day, why would I buy token??”, “oh I can clear Mythic raid on opening day, boosted people are bad!”
That’s also why I highlighted the example of my friend (To show why anecdotal examples are useless), he is a pretty solid player, he bought boosts to skip the grind of low keys, because he knew his skill was up to better, and it allowed him to jump into content “his level” faster, because he paid for it.
No. That would mean everything in life is P2W as you “buying” a game is not P2W… There is a difference, you paying your sub, gives you no advantage and or luxuries that other people paying for the game doesn’t get.
However, you buying a token and then giving that token to a group of people to sit AFK while they kill mobs for you to get you from 1-70 in a few hours rather than lvl, is P2W.
You then extending that to buying M+ and raid boosts to get geared allows you to enter content your skill didn’t get you into but your wallet did. That’s the difference.