Yes, most of the discussion seems to be on a very base, individual level, as if players compared themselves to other players at all times. Any attempt at talking about the game in such a way that we left as much of ourselves behind as possible is met with a knee-jerk reaction.
I guess this is what the “anything goes” and “everything is subjective” and to a lesser extent “perfect the way you are” attitude does to public discourse. I shall just leave it at that.
I mean, it is more about the definition of P2W is subjective. To me the game needs to have certain items only available for money. Like for example 550 ilvl weapons, which are not available when you do not pay.
And still then i wonder what the “win” part is in this game. I can only think of using those OP shop pieces in PvP, because in that situation you are directly fighting a different player.
So to me WoW is Pay2Progress. Not Pay2Win.
But can you then name any actual P2W games? Just out of curiosity
Yes, i have played before games with features and even direct items only available in the shop. Also heavily PvP based games. There are tons of mobile games still like that.
Which games? That is what I am curious of
Tons of browser games. One that comes to mind was Travian. Which was a city builder where you were able to steal other peoples resources and cities. You just bought 25% extra resources, 2nd builder row, etc.
But currently also that Rise of kingdom mobile game.
I have played Warspear which is an MMORPG which had items to upgrade your gearslots, which required only shop available items. You got like 3 times as strong with the same gear as someone who did not upgrade. And this game had a lot of PvP.
I have to admit i do not play that many games. So forgive me to give a whole list.
AION
Call of duty Warzone. Most guns that come out with the battle pass perform better until a patch comes out.
Any of those League of Angels “games.” No game, just pay
Any mobile game really
But here you just get a resource boost, so you don’t get something other people don’t? So no “magic weapon” inside the shop?
Also here, spending money just allows you to advance faster, nothing more.
From what I can see when Googling, you can purchase those things with absolute insane amounts of gold, meaning the game kind of “forces” you to buy it off the shop, by making the gold requirement so high, but you could technically play the game for free and get to that point eventually.
Its okay, didn’t want you to list a ton, was just curious.
But when looking at the three games you mentioned, they all seem like they don’t fit your definition of P2W, as you don’t get something unobtainable, you just advance faster
If we wanted to be very rigorous with words, are there any games where paying causes you to auto-complete the game? Even outside of MMOs where winning = advantage in whatever your goals are, swiping a credit card gives you an advantage right?
Time is money.
Correct me if I am wrong please, but is Warzone not a game mode of the game?
So if you can play demolishion or Team deathmatch without those weapons the game itself wouldn’t be P2W right?
Mobile games would be quality of life in this case. The ones I would classify as P2W, doesn’t give you something unoptainable
25% resources means bigger city, bigger army. You get everything more. You can by the way also buy army strength bonus. There is so much you can buy in the shop…
In a game where you attack and get attacked that is not just an advance faster. It is destroy or getting destroyed. And there are literally items in the shop (like hero’s) that you can only obtain with money.
Technically is something difficult in a game where every half year theres an update and that half a year is not enough to even get to 10% of that technically option. But those items ARE only available in the shop. If you want to get those items as a f2p player you need to find another player who buys them for you in the shop, and then you give them gold.
Many roblox games. They sell stuff you can only get with robux, like OP weapons and pets and whatnot. Games targeted for kids with insane cashgrabs and p2w features.
I get that… But that’s not what you said… Mythic raiding gear, is more power, more strength, faster mob killing, more gold… But this you did not consider pay to win because:
Now you switch your definition…
If we go by the resource logic… Gold is a resource in WoW… You can buy more gear, enchants, gems, etc. for gold… So that’s the exact same thing as Trivian, so why is one P2W in your world but the other is not?
Just like world PVP and killing mobs in WoW… better gear = better killing… so yes, it is “advance faster”
So technically still possible?
What I am getting at here, is that you change your definiton. I quote you again:
That is not the case in any of the three games you just mentioned. Even the last one, you add, that you can buy it with gold from someone else.
Think back to BFA / SL… Race to world first raiders would just armor stack with communities and viewers to buy gear from them… They would buy PVP boosts to 2.4k to get better weapons…
And of course, they may have farmed all their gold to do so. But so many other people also just used their credit card and got the same things…
WoW is as the games you mention… You get a HUGE advantage if you swipe your card (On a general basis!).
Army strength bonus is for sure P2W. Or a shield when you get attacked. Because why not buy immunity when you need it. It is basically buying 25% extra main stat on all your gear in wow. Which you can not get by not paying.
You are going into strange semantics. If you do not see the difference of those couple examples with WoW, then well… that is up to you. But for me it is a world of diffence.
You’re not going to be better at killing people in pvp just because you have better gear unless it’s like 40-50 ilvl difference, lmao.
Of course, but you can get that army strength without paying too… It just takes longer timer, the 25% bonus as far as I can read ONLY applies to resource gatherings.
By that logic, better gear in WoW should also be P2W.
Your definition switched from “It has to be something that can only be obtained through shop” to “This gets me there faster and is more advantageous”
So you are going to be better at killing others 
thanks
Another example is pokemon go, if you are free to play there you will fall far behind the ones that pay. Certain pokemon has been only available behind paywalled tickets as an example (keldeo springs to mind). You can for sure play it without spending anything, but you will not be as powerful as the ones that swipe their cards.
No.
I encountered people like that in vanilla who thought gear matters so much.
Then they got killed by a rogue wearing nothing but lvl 1 daggers.
You actually can’t. There’s an army limit per city.