When i click your portrait it says 59 posts in topic. 60 now though 
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Its so much and i have barely any of that 
dont think i’ll ever get all that done, i’ll just envy others taivans 
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Are you saying a mount, title or gear don’t matter? You are saying gear doesn’t make you stronger? How does that compute in your head?
I disagree. The oxford dictionary defines pay to win:
“In computer games, involved or relating to the practice of paying to get weapons, abilities, etc. that give you an advantage over other players who do not spend money.”
Oxford dictionary
Right now i can buy a boost for a mythic raid i want for example to get the legendary Axe. Mythic has a higher chance to drop it over any other difficulty. I gained an advantage over all other non-mythic clear players through money and not effort.
It’s an advantage. I get an Axe that is BiS. Other fools might not even get it at all. All i have to do is pay up.
This is pay to win. I don’t care about your custom made definitions. It is. Nothing you say can change that. This is a fact. You can swipe your credit card for token, use it to pay the boost and get bis gear without even hitting a button on a boss. Money drove this, not gameplay. You gained an advantage over every other players that didn’t pay and had to take weeks to learn and clear the raid weekly or never got it at all.
Like, if you want to get a friend to clear the raid on your character and pay them and their guild is fine with it, nothing is stopping you. It’s him playing, not you. That is an off game transaction. The problem are in-game transactions, on particular the token, which facilitates it and translates real money to gold.
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Right now I can do that for free. Might take me a while to find a guild looking for a poorly played ele shammy but I’m sure I could.
I won’t be getting any RWF or even any CE or AotC but that’s nothing to do with my wallet.
If you read my post you’d see that I agreed that WoW can be considered P2W but on a scale of 1 to 10 of P2W it is a 3. Which is a tolerable level. It’s part of the game (pretty much part of every game) but not a massive part. Not a problematic part.
Are you saying it’s higher than that?
And also Mounts and titles don’t matter. There are hundreds of mounts in the game and they all do more-or-less the same thing. There aren’t faster mounts from the shop.
There are loads of titles and nobody cares if you have a rare one or a cool one or a silly one.
I’m not really sure what the point of this thread is, which makes my 22 posts in it rather befuddling to me.
Sure, money plays some part in the game. so what?
Nobody in a RWF guild is buying boosts. They aren’t buying anything that gets them to that win.
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You said it right there. It takes time.
Yes. That is an advantage. If i can get the axe in 1 or 2 weeks and say you need 15 weeks that is an advantage.
Imagine for example taking that axe to pvp versus someone that can’t get it yet. It’s an advantage. But one not earned.
I see. Well, i only read your replies to me. If you think WoW is also P2W then we are in agreement. I don’t know what’s up with the arbitrary scale though. 
We can agree it’s not as bad as a pay2win only game. For sure. In WoW it’s an option, but it’s becoming quite a common one that is making a mockery of playing the game.
I could make the argument that prestige does matter, but i don’t need to.
RWF players are not the only players that play the game. You gotta compare to all.
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I reckon I’d find it easier to find a mythic raiding guild now than in TBC in the era before Tokens.
I am pretty sure that isn’t the case. There are way less players playing today and the bosses are way more complex. Also, the playerbase is now older and has less free time.
Its one thing to find a mythic raiding guild, but finding one that actually gets to CE would probably not be so easy. As an example i doubt i would get into any CE guilds unless they are very very desperate for a healer i just dont have the skill needed to play at CE level.
Not than TBC originally.
Also only about 2% of players raided back then.
Also there were Attunements to get into raids so getting into a guild was tough if you weren’t attuned to the raids.
I doubt it was easier then than now.
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Which you boiled down to a definition that I pointed out didn’t really hold 
Again, I’ve seen and discussed with you in many threads and its always the same. Regardless of how many or how they tell you, you may be wrong, you conclude with “I don’t agree, you can’t change my mind, end of discussion”.
So I see no point of you entering a debate, if you’re anyways not interested in swaying your mind and or arguing for your own standpoint 
You might not get it at all, even if you pay for a run.
That’s a good point. Attunements were a pain.
I guess it’s a toss up.
Isnt this every single person on the forums?
I mean in the end we just disagree. And it does not really work to define a definition of a subjective thing on someone else. You pointed out something did not hold, for you. For me it does. It is clear a definition for game A is different for game B since the games are different. You want to hold me onto buying ilvl in a game about resources. Indeed, that does not hold since ilvl does not exist. We can agree on that.
But in the end we just disagree on P2W for Wow. And that is completely fine. I am also not going to change your mind. That works both ways 
And that’s for Mythic raiding versus the only raiding in TBC.
Today you could easily find a guild / community to run it on Normal or even Heroic.
It’s probably never been easier to get into a raid than in recent expansions.
So probably more people are seeing raids for free now than before Tokens were a thing.
So sure WoW is P2W but so the eff what?
Is it making it harder for the average player to achieve their goals with or without a boost?
Would removing tokens increase access to raids or M+ for anyone?
Would anyone be achieving more in that game?
Don’t get ahead of yourself with assumptions. There were way more players and services back then. Today the playerbase is about 7m split through several games. TBC was about 10m all in live.
Why do you get so defensive about it? Yes, it is P2W. But as you said, it’s not the most egregious case.
The problem is the P2W part is become a more common choice and that devalues the effort put by those playing the game as intended.
At some point people hit the point of “why am i doing this when people are just pulling their credit cards to do the same? Might as well play a game worth my time.”.
Yes, it would increase the number of players taking part on the gameplay itself. It would make queues shorter, player pools bigger. If not just that, it would keep the players playing more invested and their time investment more valued.
If you cheapen the rewards, you cheapen the journey.
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But why are you comparing yourself with others? I would be miserable when i would. People time keys up to 10 levels higher than i am ever able to. I have absolutely no reason to start comparing. I just have to look at my own fun in the game. I am enjoying playing the game. Paying for it would only destroy it.
And obviously i do not even know when other people are just buying tokens and whatever achiement. Those people just have an achievement and that is all i can see.
he is probably defensive as you are so passive aggressive towards them for no reason.
Does it really?
Your guild manages to clear a raid and everyone is cheering over the discord channels.
Whoop!!!
Then billy has to point out “Fred bought a boost of this yesterday.”
Oh there goes all our fun then. might as well delete the game.
That does happen and it does make everyone uncomfortable with Fred for not wanting to take part. 
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