Anyone whose enjoyment is diminished due to someone else pretending to complete a raid doesn’t deserve to enjoy the game.
Who that ?
You got ahead of yourself again. Uncomfortable with Fred doesn’t mean the group is unhappy about the clear.
You are straw manning there bud.
I will come around. I care about people cheating. It’s not fair to other players who don’t do it and it’s why concepts such as P2W and cheating exist. Cause they aren’t desirable. I don’t want them normalised, no. If they were a good thing every game would be P2W only and popular. So, i am sure we can agree it’s not a healthy thing.
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You have not heard of Mistjo???
He is the undisputed winner of wow… the all time best and most winningest player in all of Azeroth…
Surely you jest sir…Tales have been told of the legendary heroism and all round winningness of Mistjo…
No clue who that is.
This Legend right here…
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What if Fred actually played really well and came close to top of the meters when he cleared the raid that he paid to join?
I’ve been carried for free, got the NZoth mount. I doubt the meter even registered my presence. Is that cheating too?
And in a lot of guild raids there will be players who are doing really well and players who probably couldn’t fight their way out of a paper bag. But becuase they are good firends with the guild they get to join in raid nights. Are they cheating too?
Considering you went completely silent after my last reply to you, for you to then jump back in, yes. It does seem so 
What if God descended to the earth and blessed Fred?
Yes, it is cheating if you used real money to pay for the gold. You didn’t progress that fight. Wether you did well or not is irrelevant. You were carried. Your input was not compulsive.
There are more guilds out there. Find one that aligns with your goals. You made the case on how easy it was just a moment ago.
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Yep we agree, every person on these forums has an opinion and most of them dont change that opinion.
Its a good job that these are all just opinions and that there are no facts listed here 
When did I ever mention buying ilvl?.. So what you are saying is, you can’t compare things unless they are 100% identical? How would you ever compare the fastest transportation vehicle then?
I want to hold you to the fact that in game A you talked about ressource gain to be an advantage and therefor game A was P2W, but in WoW where gold is also a ressource you claim it’s not P2W.
And I ask again, if we are just here not even bothering to debate a subject, and just gonna go “nuh uh, we disagree. end of.” then why even brings things forward to discuss?
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Every person in the world tend to have an opinion, so not really ground breaking I would say
In a semantic discussion, these “opinions” is what is being discussed, so wanting facts when the subject matter is semantic, would be super weird for all parties involved
Alright, let’s dig out the old faithful again:
WoW has 4 design pillars:
- Great combat
- Sense of world
- Community
- Constant stream of content
It takes 4 different kinds of skill - to correspond to each of these 4 pillars:
- Be good at fighting the enemies directly
- Be well prepared - use the resources of the world to overcome challenges and progress
- Find the right people in your community
- Be ready to adapt as things change
If you managed to find someone who were willing to carry you all the way to a mount for free because they just like you so much, do you know what you did? You succeeded at the 3rd type of skill to such an overwhelming degree that it was enough in and of itself. It was not cheating.
And quite frankly, paying for it is just the 2nd kind of skill combined with the 3rd - you came with everything needed to convince a group of people to do something for you.
The moment it becomes cheating is the moment you short-circuit the 2nd type of skill requirement by swiping your credit card.
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Right! So you would agree that any opinion here would be just that and not a statement of fact.
So this whole discussion about wow being pay to win or not is futile because no one can actually prove that it is or not.
Without proof how is anyone expected to change their view?
Considering opinions can’t be facts, then yes. That again, does not solely stay here on the Forums
if you see discussions as only relevant if you have facts, and or if you can change the mind of someone else, man I feel bad for every philosopher that has ever lived and or shaped the world we live in today
A discussion doesn’t have to end up with both parties agreeing. But the whole “I will say this thread is wrong because A, B and C” and when someone questions it go “Nah, you are wrong. I don’t agree. Goodbye” or… like you did, just dip out, that makes the true question… Why even engage in a semantic discussion?
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Fair enough.
For the record i don’t agree. I posted the definition of P2W from the Oxford dictionary. That is the in fact current definition of the term.
Other definitions are currently opinions. The meaning can change in the future as it happens, but currently that is the definition in the most prestigious english language dictionary. Make of that what you will. Many people don’t know the definitions of words and i have to end up having to link meanings of concepts such as unfair advantage and cheating.
But i am hoping the official forums are higher level than mmo champion.
I just won’t though cause you are right about something. People won’t change their opinions regardless. But, maybe someone reading will. 
Ok so if we take that for a moment as indeed a fact. This states that P2W is
You cannot get an advantage over other players who do not spend money. There is no mention in this definition that we are using in this case as the factual definition of a time advantage or effort advantage.
It only mentions paying to get weapons, abilities. Which you (currently) cannot do.
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You forgot two things, since you like to be so factual…
You HAVE to include the “etc.” you can’t just stop where you want when quoting a sentence.
- You can buy weapons? In raids, LFR etc. a lot of people need on stuff to sell to the group. AH is a thing where you can again, buy weapons… So Don’t really see how you can claim its factually wrong?
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I completely agree with you, but I just want to say one little fun detail: Oxford Dictionary considers itself descriptive rather than prescriptive - as opposed to for example “Retskrivningsordbogen”, which considers itself an authority on how to spell in Danish and all definitions are given, rigidly.
That means Oxford Dictionary does not claim to be a source of absolute truth about the English language, but to approximate it as well as it can. Far better than Binar can, more than likely, so I don’t have a problem with you using it.
In practice it doesn’t make much of a difference. People tend not to care xD
Yes you can. You get the advantage that you need less skill to progress, which is objectively an advantage, and I’m sick of people pretending it’s not.
“Oh but money won’t buy you rank 1 M+!”
Hah, yeah, and approximately 0.2% of players care about that while the rest of us are having to live with the reality of other players getting things easier than us due to swiping their credit card.
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