Stop saying it wont solve anything, yeah it wont revolutionize leveling but atleast for me if i lvl up and get a skill or a talent per lvl its still a good change of pace compared to the incredibily booring state of leveling, alot more can and should be done, but we have to start from somewhere
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indeed and for that, they have more knowledge then few random players as they have thousands if not millions player feedback coming from all sources.
they do make mistakes. then they fix them by introducing changes and improvements, just like they did with the talent system.
imagination running wild again?
Yes please!when is this coming live!!!
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Whoops, my bad. I thought they didnât quite match any talent trees from back then⊠I was in a rush to finish the post and just guessed 
Hm. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
So⊠systems, not changed⊠work well⊠donât need changingâŠ
I canât think of any examples in the game currently, but just because something doesnât work, doesnât mean Blizz are happy with it and they wonât change it. Often itâs because they lack ideas on improving it and donât want to completely wreck it, like they have with quite a few things in BfA (major cooldown GCD changes, PvP gearing system, vendors etc) and then something they didnât intend to wreck that they did (giving M+ runners the ability to delete keys, then removing that, adding portal rooms and removing portalsâŠ)
Blizz often canât see the trees for the forest.
Also that. This current system has been dragging players along for 6 years.
Can any of us honestly say, unless itâs a personal defence or utility talent, that we CHOOSE our talents? I donât, I look at the content Iâm doing and pick whatâs best. Dancing Steel for M+ fortified, or Killing Spree for Tyrannical. Cheat Death almost always (again, used to be baseline) and Leeching poison for solo challenges like the Brawlers Guild.
The original talent system gave choice, Greg even says in the original article:
Sure enough, even with the Cataclysm builds today, you see quotes like âspend the last two points wherever you wantâ or âchoose X or Y at your discretion.â
Theorycrafters would give you an optimum build, and then the last few choices would literally make no difference where they went. It gave us the choice even when we were optimising our builds. The current system has lost that philosophy, even though they claim it gives us âchallenging decisionsâ. Some just plain arenât challenging (Iâm looking at you Quick Draw, Outlaw t1), some decisions are made for you by what content youâre doing and the rest are down to personal preference and thatâs at most 2/7 per spec.
All they will do is just rename the levels, for example 120 could become 60 and 60 could become 30.
If the insane amount of xp is still required, then this will not resolve the problem.
Leveling is painful because you are taken through all the zones and expansions, which is an enormous task. This is fine for a brand new player who is playing WOW for the first time, but if you are leveling alts for the 10th or so time, it is annoying, time consuming and painful.
What they could do is have a streamlined path for players who are simply leveling alts. Have a choice where you can either relive WOW all over again or take a streamlined path. This option could be available for players who have leveled up one complete character from scratch without boosting.
The choice could be permanent, where once you make your selection you are locked in for that particular alt.
They could have the streamlined path start 2 expansions behind in WOD . This way the leveling process will not take as long and people could level their alts.
Now this is an idea I like. It would give everyone a chance to play the game how they want. It could be unlocked once the player has levelled one character all the way to 120 without boosting, as you suggest. It may even work better as an achievement for getting that one character to level cap.
Then, once that achievement is unlocked, itâs up to the player if they want to level alts from scratch the old fashioned way or take your new streamlined path.
If it was done as an achievement, it would be a very easy one to get and would also fit in with the idea of character progression. Maybe even throw in an extra reward such a chunk of gold or something like that.
i genuenly dont see the problem with leveling,i just levelâd my first alliance toon via dugenons all the way to 120.only dungeons! and it took me 2day gametime,que is suprisingly quick with scaling and fast with heirlooms!
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That exists, from 1-120.
Heirlooms.
Yes, upgrading them 4 times sucks and is a massive gold dump for each loom.
But it exists.
The problem is precisely that you thought the most fun way to level through WoW was to teleport into and out of instances for 40+ hours, and that the only good thing you can say about it is how quickly it ended.
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Let me tell you something,it might blow you away,iâv done all questâs from 1-120,i do not intend to do them again,and for example in dungeons you get to play and learn your class correctly,i enjoyed every dungeon as a fury and im thankful i decided to level this way!i see people what some diferent aproach to levels beside questâs,here you go,instant scaled dungeons!
Youâve also done all the dungeons before. Youâve probably also done a kill quest before by the time you left the opening zone.
The hallmark of a great open world game is that, even when youâre running around the same space and fundamentally doing the same thing, the different environments and minor details of the challenge, both in terms of yours and enemy powers, each time makes you have to approach it differently, and the fun then comes from approaching the challenges in a different way every time you play through them.
And itâs not just you who doesnât like the levelling because youâve already played it. WoW simply doesnât attract new players anymore at all. It sometimes manage to pull in people who quit in the distant past by giving them all level boosts, effectively saying âholy mackarel our levelling is bad. Donât look at it!â
In other words, even people who have never levelled in WoW before donât like it.
The fact that you dislike levelling has nothing to do with the fact that youâve done it before, and if you truly have done it so many bloody times, maybe itâs time to just play the end-game (or something else entirely)?
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I will stop saying that it wonât solve anything when you guys stop saying that it will.
Understatement of the year.
Iâm still waiting for a point as to why I shouldnât give my feedback?
And this time theyâre asking for feedback about a change and iâm giving it.
Well iâm following your logic so you tell me. To be fair I do need some imagination to make sense of your posts.
Thatâs okay 
Finally somebody who gets it.
Or they could make it so that every single zone (except for starter zones) scales from lv 20 to 120.
That way you can go anywhere youâd like and itâd take care of the boring leveling path that weâve all done dozens of times already. It can be just that simple.
To be fair thatâs not just the fault of the leveling process. Endgame is pretty dull as well in my opinion, Classes arenât really that much fun to play, thereâs no character customization, they made all of the items have the same kind of stats / stat distribution, you get the point.
That could be because theyâre used to MMORPGs that have MMORPG elements, not to say that WoW has none of those at all, but yeah. Not many left.
I completely accept the notion that the end-game is now suffering from many of the same issues that levelling is suffering from, which is precisely why I said âor play something else entirelyâ.
World of Warcraftâs developers had no conception of what theyâre giving up when they make all the ridiculous changes they keep on making over and over and over again. While I think theyâre starting to realise what they have done now, they have caused so much damage that the dam has burst.
Any attempt to fix this is a huge undertaking, but itâs one that has to be accomplished if we want to see this game live for another 15 years.
Iâm not going to go into the issues here, but broadly the game no longer has meaningful progression, everybodyâs wearing a clownsuit, and transmog tries to fix this by removing even more meaningful progression.
Letâs zoom in on lack of meaningful progression. The reason why we donât feel anything is because of the constant feeling of getting reset. In levelling, it manifests as level scaling and an absurd amount of levels, each of which provides no meaningful reward, but does literally make all your gear worse for no apparent reason. In end-game PvE, it manifests as a huge amount of item levels but an extremely simplistic gearing system with uninteresting items, as well as mobs scaling to your item level.
So yes, itâs fundamentally the same problem. To fix the end-game side, we have to collapse the amount of difficulty levels and item level upgrades and provide actual progression through increasingly difficult (but starting out easy) content. To fix the levelling side, we have to make levelling progressively harder as you move into new areas, but get rid of the scaling allowing for easier choices along the way if it gets too hard for someone, and make sure every level gives something interesting, and that implies rethinking level scaling and that implies rethinking the amount of levels in the game as well as the level range of every mob in the game.
Thereâs no way around it short of just letting the game die.
True, and what youâre defending is part of how the MMORPG elements were killed.
It needs to change. WoW should be an MMORPG. Nobody runs to WoW wanting to play anything but an MMORPG. Thatâs its brand, thatâs why people play it. Trying to change it into something else has not ended well, and unless Blizzard stops thinking with their behind for a few years, we cannot save it.
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this is not a problem, we had stat squishes before, and that is, why we need a level squish,
you get almost nothing in 20! levels, and even your old talent system and goody bags wonât help
the stat growth is so linear, that it is barely noticable, so the best thing that happens to your goody bag, is to be sold at the next best npc, the blue gear is useless, especially for players with heirlooms, but it is still useless, if you are leveling without heirlooms, because the stats on the gear DOESNâT change (at least not enough to notice)
the potions are also useless, you donât need them at all while leveling, so they get sold at the next NPC too.
also your talents would only counterbalance the losses, while leveling up, you would still gain nothing, (at the moment you lose a lot of stats while leveling up, it is most noticable at 110-120⊠(a 110 character will do more damage than a 120 character in a dungeon due to scaling)
so you need a level squish to actually gain something and to make the gear you get meaningful
they need to rework the whole leveling process, the number of max levels, the talent system and the stat system to make a real difference
Edit: I wrote stat squish instead of level squish
Systems that work well wouldnât change for the sake of changing and the talent system we have today is working better than the old talent system; otherwise, they would have changed it.
I canât think of any examples in the game currently, but just because something doesnât work, doesnât mean Blizz are happy with it and they wonât change it.
Again, if something doesnât work they will change it, the old talent system is an example of that but even if they arenât happy with the current talent system doesnât mean they would revolutionize the system and it certainly doesnât mean they would go back to something else that havenât worked for them in the past, just because you believeâŠ
Often itâs because they lack ideas on improving it and donât want to completely wreck it, like they have with quite a few things in BfA (major cooldown GCD changes, PvP gearing system, vendors etc) and then something they didnât intend to wreck that they did (giving M+ runners the ability to delete keys, then removing that, adding portal rooms and removing portalsâŠ)
You say they lack ideas but I say you lack the facts so here, Iâll give you few facts.
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They got feedback about the GCD and improved it in patch 8.1.
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They got feedback on the portal room and in patch 8.2 they are adding Caverns of Time to the portals room.
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In their point of view, the PvP vendors donât make sense in todayâs WoW because PvP gear is on the same level of PvE gear and because of that they changed the way you acquire gear in PvP, just because you and some others think vendors should be added doesnât mean they have to agree with it.
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About M+ they decided that deleting keys is something that goes against the nature of what they intended and removed the ability to do it because people were abusing it to the point that some dungeons were skipped so instead of deleting keys, the dev team made some of the dungeons a lot easier to run to compensate for that so it was definitely something they intended.
Blizz often canât see the trees for the forest.
Agreed. Thereâs a lot to be done. Actual changes that would work â not a level squish â but yes itâs going to be a lot of work.
You canât make leveling harder the further that you progress because that would give you the feeling that youâre growing weaker over time which is the exact problem that lv100+ faces today. It is however not an issue at lower levels up to at least lv80.
You also canât just give people easier alternatives without also giving them less of a reward e.g; Less experience, Less gold, Weaker gear rewards, etc.
Difficulty must always give an appropriate reward. The harder the content, the better the reward. The opposite is also true. The easier the content, the worse the reward.
Not to mention that if you get less experience for doing easier content I donât think that players would be bothered to go through it at all and aside for that easy content also would not encourage players to grow and improve themselves.
Difficulty was one of my largest driving force back in vanilla-tbc for wanting to become better and stronger.
This is why I proposed the following:
Like you said, this is an MMORPG, so if the content is too difficult for somebody then they should be encouraged to group up with another player and do the content that way; Together.
â
I vehemently disagree with the statement that you need to change the number of levels that we have to be able to give players something every time that they level up, especially because I have already given an example of a far easier way to go about doing that.
e.g:
Lv10 - Talent point
Lv 11- Loot bag
Lv12 - Talent point
lv13 - Loot bag
Lv14 - Talent point
Lv15 - Loot bag
Lv16 - Talent Point
All the way up to lv120. You will end up having 55 loot bags and 55 talents.
A talent tree with 55 spendable talent points is easily do-able and would give us back some of the customization that we have lost.
You could also go 40 bags, 60 points if you want to.
Defending and supporting Player Freedom, In-depth Character Customization and RPG elements are why they removed them� That makes no sense.
I agree 100%.
âŠWhat? It is going to become a problem lmao. Thatâs not me quoting me, thatâs me quoting Ion Hazzikostas.
Actually if you factor in the Talent tree (assuming that the minor talents that you get are well-designed alongside actual class design and increase the damage of your abilities directly or give you a fair amount of direct stats per talent point), together with the recent update that allowed quest items and certain rare mob drops to have a chance to upgrade in quality ĂĄnd if you add to that the Loot bags that would give you a blue item then for a fresh leveler you would definitely see a large upgrade in player power every single time that you level up.
You can not possibly make me believe that one talent point giving say â Your mortal strike or Eviscerate a 5-10% increase in damage is not a noticable power increase.
Which is why in my opinion they should remove all heirloom gear and replace it all with a single tabard or Shirt that grants you +100% Experience Bonus from all sources so that gear will be worth using again⊠which you know⊠is âkind ofâ important in an MMORPG?
âŠBut the whole heirloom thing is a completely different debate that I really donât want to have be part of this one. Itâd get too complex, so moving onâŠ
You would need them if they actually made the out-door world dangerous again. I loved it when I got a few of them back during the Blizzcon Classic Realm Demo.
It helped a lot, especially as a Warrior. Saved my behind multiple times.
Thatâs really just an issue at lv110+, I donât know what causes that but that doesnât happen at lower levels. A simple tuning issue, I recon.
A level squish would not do anything aside for visually changing the number next to your portrait. It changes nothing systemetically. The scaling would still be broken between lv50-60 (assuming they turn 110-120 in to 55-60).
I have no clue how you even got to the conclusion that a Level Squish would fix that problem when even Ion Hazzikostas said, in the specific example that he gave, that it would not change anything power level or stat-wise.
And if it did affect stats and power levels then the level squish would be a gigantic disaster instead of just the useless change that I currently consider it to be.
This entire level squish would be making a change for the sake of making a change.
If you want that number next to your portrait to say â60â so badly then just write an addon that does so for you. Donât bother everyone else with it.
No, not really. Not at all actually. Not even remotely close.
Replacing an entire talent system isnât something that you can change âjust like thatâ without having had any real feedback on it, thatâs why they didnât replace the system we have yet. They may consider doing so now though seeing as how theyâre trying to have a discussion about progression now.
Well thatâs pretty contradictory. âIf something doesnât work then theyâll change it, but if they find that this talent system doesnât work then that doesnât mean theyâll change it.â
Iâll let Blizzard decide that. They gave us back things that they removed before and they can always do so again.
Itâs actually not unless youâre playing duelist (2.1k) or higher. Itâs at least twice as easy to get high ilv pve gear than it is to get high ilv pvp gear.
So⊠youâre saying that they changed something because it wasnât working as they initially intended it to work as? Sounds like the current talent system.
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΀ÎÎ A LEVEL SQUIZ IS NEEDED! Yes, imagine being new player havinmg to grind in 5 years from now letâs say 150 lvls? ;s
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Thatâs not an argument for a level squish. Thatâs an argument to stop increasing the level cap.
That exact problem would remain even if they did squish the levels.
they can fix problem+ SQUISH then. Its an arguement ofc, 120 lvls is a lot. and expansion w/o leveling is basically no progress. Except if we have ab ad system with azertie something like now. 100% lvl squish is needed
there can be no large upgrade in low levels, the large upgrade needs high differences in stats, and this is not possible, you are losing a lot of stats, while leveling up, your 5% more crit wonât do a thing, if it takes 10 levels to get that 5%⊠because you are losing more than 5% in 10 levels⊠the gear doesnât become better in 20!!! levels⊠level 60 gear has almost the same stats as level 80 gear (give or take +1 primary stat) which means an upgrade is not possible here⊠the gear would have to upgrade to a point, where it is too high for the level
remember the stat squish, this is the reason, for the need of the level squish, because the changes arenât that bad then
that is why I said, they need to rework the whole leveling experience
The stats and the levels are not in balance anymore, they are far from balanced
these legendary weapons are an example of how the gear doesnât become better
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