Agreed, I just assume Revendreth is a gazzilion times bigger in-Lore then ingame. Zul’jin doesn’t deserve Revendreth tho, he should be with Bwonsamdi.
He, sadly, made only one true bad decision and that was trusting Sylvanas Windrunner and her undeath Forsaken.
But you can’t really blame him either, she did free him from mindcontrol and both of them kept up their ends of the bargain until she didn’t.
Sad but true, he should’ve prepared for the coming betrayal by the undeath. You can’t trust those rotters after all.
That’s not to blame on Garithos. Stromgarde and Gilneas had both withdrawn from the Alliance of Lordaeron before the Third War and Stromgarde fell to ruins after Galen Trollbane betrayed and murdered his father.
I still dislike Blizzard made him an (Grand) Alliance character but refuse to apply that same logic too the Horde.
The Alliance of Lordaeron was entirelly different from the Grand Alliance, as much as the Old Horde was different from the New Horde.
Was there some overlap in bannery and members? Certainly, but that doesn’t make them the same organisation.
Couldn’t agree more.
I heard the USians dislike him and his attempt at trolling too
Living people can be possessed and mindcontrolled by very powerful Demons like the Dreadlords if they want to.
Probably after Kael’thas and all the Blood Elves had left the Alliance to go to Outland through the portal with Vash’j, Garithos had no more mages, priests or any other kind of magical users and casters in his whole army, it was just an army of footmen, knights and some Dwarven riflemen.
Basically without the Blood Elves, there was now nobody in the army of Garithos who could cast, sense or counter magic anymore (other than Blood Elf mages and priests, the Spellbreakers are also very apt at this) , and so Garithos and his human army were extremely vulnerable to enemy spells, to the point the Dreadlords just saw the opportunity and cast a mass-mindcontrol spell and they didn’t even realise they were afflicted by it, nor there was anyone who could dispel it anymore (until Sylvanas came later)
If he never did anything wrong you have to explain to me why he was brutally tortured for HOURS by the High Elves who even took his eye…I think it’s the first time the High Elves had ever used such a brutal torture on a prisoner of war.
That scene might make the High Elves look violent and cruel, but the truth is that you have to consider Zul’jin was leading countless violent raids against the Kingdom of Quel’thalas since even before the Second War. Every single ranger who tortured him probably had at least a dead person in his/her family because of Zul’jin. Otherwise I can’t really explain the torture, as I said High Elves never openly practiced torture on a prisoner in such a violent way. Even the Blood Elves in their darkest hour tortured and experimented on a Naaru only because they wanted to be able to wield the Light again even if forcefully, and to establish a new Paladin order through that, so despite the method was evil, the objective was still good for them as a race as they became Blood Knights and came in contact with the Light once again even if the Light was still forced initially, but the process of their redemption started there . But not the torture of Zul’jin that was just brutal and cruel and only for sating the bloodlust of the rangers.
Besides, Zul’jin was going to die on the spot. The Farstriders were going to torture him, AND kill him immediately after. But he was saved by Liadrin who, still a priestess of the Light, was there with the rangers and did not want them to murder a person in cold blood, even if he was the leader of the Amani, and Halduron who wanted to bring him in Silvermoon in order for Zul’jin to have a fair trial rather than killing him there. They only barely managed to stop the rangers from killing him and so those two saved Zul’jin , who was only tortured and so could manage to escape after that.
(btw this is a recurring theme about High/Blood Elves and even Night Elves too, they are sometimes too forgiving with their enemies and they pay for that later, basically it’s the same situation with Lor’themar and Rommath and Umbric and his followers, if Umbric had been arrested rather than exiled in the Ghostlands, Alleria would have not found and saved them and therefore the Void Elves wouldn’t exist now, but I guess in that way Blizzard would have not been able to have them playable in the Alliance, as they preferred to pick a group of former Blood Elves rather than High Elves already existing in the Alliance )
they need to add quest where the player torments Zul’jin to hammer in that he did in fact do everything wrong in fact most of the player base would end up right next to good old zul’jin being tormented for their sins
I don’t even get this argument. You are partially arguing Zul’jin had it coming, but then it was too brutal and cruel?
This is a pretty rich argument, seeing that the high elves, direct quote, ‘etched the boundaries of their new realm in blood’. Alleria and Sylvanas were leading population control raids against the Amani, hunting them like animals. This is how they both cut their teeth.
So, basically, yeah. If you acknowledge one, you acknowledge the other. At this point, the Amani tribes were subjected to several millennia of systematic genocide.
This is absolutely nonsensical. You can not justify torture or abuse because you get something out of it. Hell, I can define every act of torture as justified now, because, erm, the interrogator wanted to know something. So, the objective was for the good of his people, race, nation, whatever.
Come on.
As for the redemption, for the Light, etc, that has nothing to do with the morality of the act. This is basic logic. If I do bad things, and Jesus descends from heaven, this does not mean I was not a bad person who did terrible things.
Liadrin and the Blood Knights knew exactly what they were doing. The fact they got rewarded for it by a higher power (plot, plot, cough, cough) does not negate that.
Erevien would be among the judges. I genuinely do not understand what spurred on this reply of yours, but anyway, far it be from me not to return the favor.
I know “Zul’jin did nothing wrong” (just like Garithos did nothing wrong) is just a meme, but even memes get boring after a while, so I like to argue against them…and I’m arguing here that if he never did anything wrong, he would have not been tortured as a prisoner of war then, as the High Elves never did that a savage thing like that before without reason. When Anduin was taken as a prisoner by the Horde in Pandaria, he was treated exceptionally well because even for the Horde he was a good person. If he wasn’t, maybe Anduin would have been tortured too like Zul’jin who deserved it…
This was mostly just during the initial conquest when they established Silvermoon and Quel’thalas as a Kingdom, 7000 years ago. After that, for 7000 years it was pretty much the Amani who attacked them first, the High Elves just defended themselves. This is confirmed when they had to create a special fighting force like the Farstriders rangers to contain the attacks of the Trolls against them, and when they put the Runestones down so that the superstitious Amani would be afraid of attacking Eversong everytime.
I acknowledge the High Elves had taken lands that was not theirs, and that initially they had to kill a lot of Trolls to establish their kingdom. Surely I will never acknowledge a genocide of several millennia because for most of 7000 years it was always the Amani who attacked them first. In fact, if the High Elves had not wanted the Amani around anymore, they would have already wiped them out by now. There was the chance after the Troll Wars and Second War when the Amani lost and were broken, but even now the Blood Elves have more than enough power to destroy Zul’Aman if they really want. They just don’t do it because despite being their enemies, they don’t want to kill them all.
Well, let’s not live in fairy land, every race practices torture anyway, even the ones of the Alliance as it was showed recently by Turalyon and Alleria torturing Horde civilians in Arathi with the Light and the Void, and Anduin even endorsed their methods as “necessary” and “effective” despite brutal, much to Jaina’s shock.
So torture exists for everyone. I’m just saying the Blood Elves needed all the power they could get back then in order to survive after the Scourge invasion because after the Scourge they had lost so much population, and faith in the Light itself, and that terrible act actually put them on the path of redemption (this was confirmed by A’dal specifically too). Also as we will probably see in the next expansion, the Light is not entirely a force of good either, as the Light has no problem doing shady things on other beings when it’s convenient for itself as a cosmic force. I bet a planet fully conquered by the Light/Naaru looks just as a bad as one that was conquered by the undead or the Legion.
He’s more of a Horde fan than a Blood Elf one. He will take literally every race into the Horde if it meant that race would help the Horde to destroy the Alliance. I don’t think like that, I care more about Blood Elves and about logic and continuity. Taking the Amani in would basically ruin the thousands-years-old rivalry of the elves with them, not to mention the Amani have bad history with the other Horde races now, and even Orcs think as them as savages.
Reventusk are okay too, but if made playable it should be specified that the player character is from Revantusk village and not Zul’Aman, at least.
Well, I was bored and as I said, I know the title of this thread is just a meme, but when memes get old and boring I like to argue against them eventually
No, it is not a meme. It is an OOC reaction to the silly thing which Blizzard pushed with their writing. Amani are designated bad guys which we kill, as the blood elven race is the heroic protagonist in their own story.
Were the tables reversed, the places would have switched.
This is a legitimately silly position. I can not believe you actually wrote this with a straight face. Apart from being the position of ‘the victim had it coming’ you can pretty much justify whatever by going with this.
Hell, the orc guy the Alliance captor kicks to blindness probably had it coming, as he did something wrong. I know no other quest in which orcs are blinded.
Seriously, think.
Categorically untrue, as Sylvanas made her name fighting Amani and sporadic skirmishes were commonplace. Even better, some blood elven quests, if memory serves, talk about population control and culling. So, wrong.
Y-yes. I sure like invading someone’s territory, claiming it, fortifying it, then claiming I was merely defending myself. I can conquer your house, kick you out, and when you try getting back in, everything I do is merely defense.
Not true.
Source needed. And no, your own headcanon is not a source.
No one cares, stick to the argument you made. I am not here to debate Alleria or whoever.
This is okay, but it still does not make it morally justified. Like, if I keep robbing old ladies, and one sets me on the path of redemption, this in no way negates what I did before.
I repeat, this is not a meme. In the inevitable selection of playable races, Blizzard has put in motion several pretty laughable narratives. Trolls are designated punching bags and evil boogeyman, thus elves and humans killing them and exterminating them is portrayed as some weird heroism.
It is not. It is conquest. It is brutal, ruthless and utterly immoral. Zul’jin, for all his questionable moral qualities remains positioned as the tribal leader that fought millennia of elven and human oppression.
If he deserves the villain bat, so do many other characters. Zul’jin is not worse than Anasterian or Thoradin. Both of which are revered as heroes of their respective races.
Zul’jin was an Amani hero. So yeah, that includes leading raiding parties that don’t exactly follow the geneva convention. He was a war lord, not a superhero that can overpower his enemies without ever having to do distasteful things.
Is that wrong from the perspective of his people? Nope.
Is that wrong from the perspective of the elves? Only because he is doing it against them.
Is it from from a modern perspective? Sure, but why would we want that to ever be a standard?
Zul’jin was a great troll, who was exceptional enough to impress all of the Amani tribes in any category they cared to test him in. And really, that’s the best standard to measure him by. He did the best he could for his people. Pre-TBC Zul’Jin was an antagonist, but not necessarily a villain.
Now that doesn’t exactly mean that he did nothing wrong, though. He failed. He riled up the troll tribes, and lost against the elves. Then he brought them into a Horde of marauding aliens that weren’t exactly trustworthy, and that failed as well. His actions cost the Amani many lives and brought them no closer to their goal. And if he could have forseen any of this, well… then he certainly did his people wrong. And it wouldn’t be out of character, either. Zul’jin wasn’t exactly depicted as the most farseeing visionary. He was a man of immediate action and a lot of blinding hate. Not really thinking about what would happen if he failed fits him well enough. But that’d be no excuse. If we judge that he didn’t choose the right time, and the right allies, which isn’t exactly easy, since we don’t have much information about cultures and politics in general, I’d say he did wrong. If we don’t… I don’t think he did anything wrong in any relevant sense.
That was just one single bad apple among all Alliance soldiers.
In the case of the High Elves, it was a full party of rangers, they tortured him for HOURS, they took his eye with a knife rather than kick, and they almost killed him if it was not for Halduron and Liadrin who saved his life there.
As you can see the situation is very different, the rage of the High Elves was extremely savage and lasted a long time and almost cost him his life. You don’t get a treatment like that if you “don’t do anything wrong”.
The High Elves invaded but the Trolls didn’t use diplomacy either, they immediately attacked the Elves because they were remembered of the Night Elves empire.
This is similar to the Ashanvale situation, the Orcs invaded but the Night Elves did not use diplomacy and immediately attacked them, so Grom felt justified fighting them, and the Horde nowadays still pretty much feels justified in taking portions of Ashenvale for themselves because of that.
Because the Amani attacked them again in Eversong because the Blood Elves lost so much population. If they had not been villains, the Trolls would have made a truce/alliance with the Blood Elves and would have helped them fighting the Scourge back. Quel’thalas is their land too, but they did not care one bit that the Ghostlands were corrupted by the Scourge. They kept fighting the Blood Elves only and not the Scourge.
Zul’jin is in Revendreth…you don’t get in Revendreth “if you do nothing wrong”. This pretty much confirms my torture argument, he did plenty wrong and caused a lot of strife and bloodshed for both races, and the Arbiter sent him there, since apparently even Bwomsamdi had abandoned him and refused to take his soul (which is extremely uncommon for Bwomsamdi, another reason Zul’jin did plenty wrongs even in the eyes of the Loas)
I would genuinely advise you to drop the ‘he got tortured, thus he was evil’ angle. It is laughable. Using this, you can justify whatever with ‘they had it coming’. Come on.
They were not ‘remembered’. It was during Azshara’s reign that the night elves kicked troll butts ere making a pact where the night elves leave them alone, trolls do not raid.
No, it is not, as the high elves knew trolls exist, unless you are trying to imply Dath’remar, Azshara’s courtier, did not know about them.
Yes, they did. No one here claims high elves are utterly evil, no one here claims trolls are undeniably good. Both sides did wrong things, Zul’jin is not a peerless champion as Wimbert said.
But the entire approach of claiming how High Elves were merely defending themselves and were poor and innocent and whatever is legitimately laughable and needs to die.
Seriously? Shadowlands lore? Seriously? Come on now. I got Ravenclaw on my online quiz, means I am smart.
Well, at least he managed to escape so he’s not being constantly tortured by the Venthyr as well…but that also means his soul will never be redeemed if he doesn’t want to deal with it and his past sins. It seems like even Kael’thas could be redeemed before Zul’jin then, lol.
it will take millenia before keal’thas has if he can redeem him self if you actually did that convent you would know that its not a 5 minute process Hellaynnea just because his helping the player in the story don’t mean that his crimes are excused Zul’jin likewise will most likely take millenia to let go of his hatred and redeem him self in the eyes of the accuser and both them may ultimately fail and get tossed into the maw for their crimes
Hopefully it takes a long time because I don’t want to see Kael’thas turning into a Venthyr or even worse, a Kyrian anytime soon after he’s redeemed of course
also there’s some people like Erevien who want Kael back to life as Blood Elf leader instead of Lor’themar…likely not because he can be redeemed in the eyes of all Blood Elves, but because in this way Kael could screw with the Alliance again for Erevien…
Keal would most likely not start anything if anything he’d most likely try to hit on jaina
and part of me hopes he succedes just so Jaina becomes queen of Quel’thalas and can annoye Erevien
Well yes, they remembered that, and probably the Great Sundering too right ? Keeping in mind that those Elven settlers that landed on EK did so because they had refused to give up on the magic that had just destroyed the world, I’d say that open defiance and aggression was at least completely understandable (Idk if Trolls were aware of that, that’s just aftermath thinking).
Colonization alone was arguably more than enough to justify the Trolls’ reaction though
Also, Zul’jin is indeed in Revendreth but freaking Vashj has been sent to Maldraxxus smh. I think the Arbiter’s moral compass might be defective
Exactly because the Amani knew those Elves still had magic at their side, they should have resolved the problem diplomatically if they could…throwing yourself at an enemy wielding magic when you have none is a bad idea, indeed they were easily decimated initially at least until the Troll Wars when they asked for the help of the Zandalari loas and the Zandalari granted them that power…
This is true but most races do not live on the lands they originally came from…by this logic Orcs and Draenei should have no right living on the planet at all. Humans should only have the right to the Kingdom of Stromgarde in Arathi, everything else was built because of expansionism (and I’m very kind here…if I wanted to go harsh on the Humans, technically I could say they should only live in Northrend just like the Vrykul progenitors)
So almost everyone is living on conquered lands. For once that the Elves did it, I don’t see how can it be different from any other races…
As a Blood Elf fan I agree Maldraxxus would have been perfect for Zul’jin (if Bwomsamdi did not want him with himself for his own reasons).
Probably the Arbiter saw that toward the end of his life he was going mad with power in order to defeat the Blood Elves and Horde though, so he picked Revendreth rather than Maldraxxus for this reason. Also it seems Zul’jin wanted to defeat the High Elves not just to send them away from Quel’thalas, but also in order to get the power of the Sunwell for himself, and who knows what would have happened to the world if he managed to do that…
As for the diplomacy, they could have tried, yes, but probably believed the Elves would not uphold their agreements due to previous experience. And let’s be honest, diplomacy would not have stopped the High Elf advance. They were desperate, they needed those leylines, they were on troll land, the trolls had to go.
I don’t think Bwonsamdi didn’t want him, Zul’jin is most likely the one soul he lost ( for reasons unknown ). I too think he would have been a perfect fit for Maldraxxus, but of course I would prefer to see him on the Otha Side where he belongs. Since he managed to escape the Venthyr, maybe we’ll still get a quest to rescue him and deliver him to his rightful afterlife, who knows?
