🔥 War Within - Dead even before it came out

[Sea-aggramar]

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

Power tied to aesthetics. Which will force people to “choose” what blizzard developers will decide is the best numerically and then have the aesthetics of that.

So? They literally said swapping between the hero talents is as simple as swapping your talents on your talent tree now.

[Gilvion-ravencrest]

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

It ties in class fantasy (“Dark Ranger”…) with player power.

Welcome to talents you blind bat
(pssst, talents were widely considered one of the best changes of DF)

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

And people hated being forced to play the fantasy of something they disliked.

1.Speaking for all players
2. Being wrong, a very small minority said that, the rest were annoyed by the availability of the covenenats as puny already explained if you would like to open your eyes and read this

@Punyelf-draenor

The issue with the covenants was mainly that it tied you into one when you needed various for different content (they didn’t allow you to freely swap until a lot later in the game). Most felt it would have been better to tie in to one aesthetically and treat the abilities like a talent tree.

[Punyelf-draenor (Punyelf)]

Yes but the bigger issue with covenants was that you were locked in. I don’t believe you will be locked in and can change as needed.

[Whisperer-defias-brotherhood (Whisperer)]

@Sea-aggramar

So? They literally said swapping between the hero talents is simple as swapping your talents on your talent tree now.

Maybe you want to play the class fantasy of your choice rather than having to play the one you don’t like but “can swap later when you don’t play”.

[Gilvion-ravencrest]

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

Maybe you want to play the class fantasy of your choice rather than having to play the one you don’t like but “can swap later when you don’t play”.

So like specs? a feature thats been in the game since vanilla, and some people still play wha they want and achieve relativel high aspects of the game, because not everyone is as meta slave as you?

[Whisperer-defias-brotherhood (Whisperer)]

@Punyelf-draenor

Yes but the bigger issue with covenants was that you were locked in.

Well that’s subjective.
But let me just point out, that when you start the argument by presuposing I am right, it’s just that maybe it’s not THAT bad, because with covenants it was even worse… is it really making your case better?

[Gilvion-ravencrest]

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

Well that’s subjective.

Your entire thread is I dont like hero talents (subjective btw) because I think it’s similar to the system with rep, talents tree, abilities, zones, storyline, features and visuals, because it has a single aspect of it because its a talent tree, like our actual talent trees for every spec.

You can have this opinion, and its totally fine to want to express it, but please stop the dilusion that your argument is anything other than a subjective take

[Whisperer-defias-brotherhood (Whisperer)]

@Gilvion-ravencrest

You can have this opinion, but please stop the dilusion that your argument is anything other than a subjective take

Objectively if you tie player power to aesthetic choice, then you’ll have a lot of people who have to choose between aesthetics and player power.

Thus instead of having subjective preference in player power and subjective preference in fantasy and choosing both, there will objectively be group of people who will be unable to follow both these preferences as they collide.

There is nothing subjective from me.

We can also see, that the subjective preference of power mostly aligns with blizzard balancing, thus most players choose “what’s the best”, and then have to suffer the aesthetics, that they may or may not like. We don’t know how many players will be forced into what they hate aesthetically, but we know they will be, because of the choice that aesthetics are tied to player power.

Here you go. That’s objective assessment. Portraying it as “I don’t aesthetically like it, so it’s bad” is quite disingenuous.

[Oldmangeorge-emeriss (Oldmangeorge)]

Btw are these hero talents going to be a permanent thing or will it be gone after the war within

[Punyelf-draenor (Punyelf)]

The argument in SL that it should have been an Aesthetic choice was because it tied you in. I didn’t particuarly enjoy the fix they put in late game because changing was still annoying, having to go to Oribos each time.

My argument is not that it was worse, my argument is that it’s a completely different context.

[Heramaar-argent-dawn]

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

Basically new hero talent system has exactly same flaws as Shadowlands covenant system.

Power tied to aesthetics. Which will force people to “choose” what blizzard developers will decide is the best numerically and then have the aesthetics of that.

No. Not at all. Hero talents are optional. In Shadowlands the Covenant Abilities were mandatory.

Just play whatever role you want and use them if you feel like using them. For most content you won’t need them anyway and in the higher levels of endgame style isn’t the priority anyways.

[Whisperer-defias-brotherhood (Whisperer)]

@Oldmangeorge-emeriss

Btw are these hero talents going to be a permanent thing or will it be gone after the war within

Probably gone after War Within.

@Punyelf-draenor

The argument in SL that it should have been an Aesthetic choice was because it tied you in.

The argument in SL was that it should’ve been aesthetic choice, because it is aesthetic choice and by tying power into that you are no longer offered the choice if you want to compete.

@Heramaar-argent-dawn

In Shadowlands the Covenant Abilities were mandatory.

It was optional the same way as Hero talents.

@Heramaar-argent-dawn

Just play whatever role you want and use them if you feel like using them. For most content you won’t need them anyway and in the higher levels of endgame style isn’t the priority anyways.

This is just straightforward lie. Yes, you don’t need it if you don’t care about winning in the game. Sure. But most players care about win, since it’s objective of the game. And decreasing your winrate because of aesthetic choice is quite horrible situation you’re arbitrarily put to by blizz.

[Gilvion-ravencrest]

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

Objectively if you tie player power to aesthetic choice, then you’ll have a lot of people who have to choose between aesthetics and player power.

Yes but that is a choice you make long before you reach hero talents because players are forced to know this every time they get a new talent, you will know what kind of player you are before this, and if you care about meta, so much so you are going to meta slave this hard then you don’t care about fantasy and are salty cause you might be left out of the meta and forced to swap but thats just meta slaves. The players that care about aestethics will never even ask themselves which one is best cause they probably already know which one they will take regardless of meta.

My Argument is simply the only people that care about this is meta slaves, and if you are a meta slave you never cared about visual to begin with so stop acting like this will be the big change to make people have to choose, people already do that every day. It’s called a spec, because they are also talent trees, just like hero talents that are tied to a visual or lore aspect of the game, so stop doomsaying and saying that NOW it’ll be worse, it wont it’s more of what people like, because people actually like the talents belive it or not. And tying it to Covenants to say that thats why it sucks, shows you never understood the problem with covenants.

@Oldmangeorge-emeriss

Btw are these hero talents going to be a permanent thing or will it be gone after the war within

It’s evergreen, so they are here to stay, another thing for them, because wow is focusing on evergreen, shes doomsaying cause she’s a meta slave whining

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

It was optional the same way as Hero talents.

First choice yes but until the later patches if you swapped you were simply out of the competitive scene, THIS was the problem, not that talents have power

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

This is just straightforward lie. Yes, you don’t need it if you don’t care about winning in the game. Sure. But most players care about win, since it’s objective of the game. And decreasing your winrate because of aesthetic choice is quite horrible situation you’re arbitrarily put to by blizz

No stop lying to yourselff, nobody cares about what you consider winning, this is an mmo, there is no winning, it’s not intended to be “won” outside of short instances or what not, but only you think you cant do this without being so braindead you HAVE to take the bis option, just play better, I got to 2.5k rio with feral, one of the worst specs, yeah I wont push higher keys like +25s but I also dont want to

[Heramaar-argent-dawn]

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

@Heramaar-argent-dawn

In Shadowlands the Covenant Abilities were mandatory.

It was optional the same way as Hero talents.

No, it wasn’t. Entire raid groups didn’t take you with them if you prefer a different covenant.

With Hero talents that isn’t given because it is entirely pre-determined by the devs what you can use on what spec.

There won’t be as much social exclusion as we had in SL.

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

@Heramaar-argent-dawn

Just play whatever role you want and use them if you feel like using them. For most content you won’t need them anyway and in the higher levels of endgame style isn’t the priority anyways.

This is just straightforward lie. Yes, you don’t need it if you don’t care about winning in the game. Sure. But most players care about win, since it’s objective of the game. And decreasing your winrate because of aesthetic choice is quite horrible situation you’re arbitrarily put to by blizz.

Look man, you complain about the aesthetic looks of 2 active spells and 4-6 passive spells. I also would prefer if Paladins Light would be pure silver instead of golden one so we actually differ from Priests. Doesn’t mean it needs to be changed “because MUH STYLE!”.

[Razgard-draenor]

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

War Within is repeating Shadowlands mistakes including no communication about issues.

Lol, how can you even conflate the two?

The problems with shadowlands covenant were the below:

• Aesthetic choices linked to power

• Choosing one covenant locked you into the specific one, with the option to change ONCE each week were you LOST ALL PROGRESS.

• The covenants were not balanced so players had to forgo choice for power.

From the above, only 1 and 3 is applicable partially you could argue, because there is some aspect of flavor in the hero talents. Otherwise they are not locking you into a single one (you can join a dungeon as one hero spec and the next as another), and there is no unlock requirement, you just have all of them.

There is no parallels with shadowlands and the fiasco that that was, and we are still before alpha, they release ideas, expect feedback AND THEY CHANGE according to feedback (look at oracle).

Now if you hear about hero specs and you want subclasses with different visuals, then that is not something that blizzard has promised to do and was not even in the table.

[Bankoeverzo-silvermoon]

You would hope not, but least we not forget, Covenant was meant to be an initial aesthetic choice before it launched in the state we got.

At least this will be evergreen though.

[Whisperer-defias-brotherhood (Whisperer)]

@Gilvion-ravencrest

My Argument is simply the only people that care about this is meta slaves

Kinda weak argument, because you’re not even claiming I am wrong and that it is bad decision. You just try to pretend that it’s not that bad.

But I will address it anyway. The only people who care about it, are people who are interested in both player power and aesthetics. Which is almost everybody and it is everybody who uses transmog.

@Gilvion-ravencrest

if you are a meta slave you never cared about visual to begin with

oh now you’re losing argument so badly that you need to pretend what I care about?
I care about both, and so does majority players
that’s why transmog is so beloved

@Gilvion-ravencrest

but only you think you cant do this without being so braindead

I never said I can’t do it. Insults and strawman. Thank you for representing players who disagree with me and claim that it’s ok if player power is tied with aesthetics.

@Razgard-draenor

AND THEY CHANGE according to feedback (look at oracle).

Do they change philophy of locking aesthetics with power? I don’t think so. It’s like saying “they try to balance out covenant abilities in alpha, therefore it’s good”. They also kept changing covenant abilities in Alpha. Venthyr Warlock for example. It was garbage whole expansion anyway.

[Deveón-laughing-skull]

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

Yes, for bottom 1% worst players it doesn’t matter as much. Or rather, they don’t care it matters. Like with covenants.

You got it backwards mate. It’s free of choice for most players unless you want to push mythic raiding or very high keys, so the TOP 1%, not the bottom.
Fact that you don’t get this says more than enough how out of the loop you are.
I’m living proof, I main a spec that isn’t meta and I have zero problems in most content.

[Razgard-draenor]

@Bankoeverzo-silvermoon

You would hope not, but least we not forget, Covenant was meant to be an initial aesthetic choice before it launched in the state we got.

I am pretty sure that it was always communicated to be tied to player power. Even at blizzcon they said we are gonna get new abilities from the covenants.

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

Do they change philophy of locking aesthetics with power? I don’t think so. It’s like saying “they try to balance out covenant abilities in alpha, therefore it’s good”. They also kept changing covenant abilities in Alpha. Venthyr Warlock for example. It was garbage whole expansion anyway.

Yeah but there is no aesthetic in war within, they are just different specs. Like it is now you choose what spec to play with whatever criteria you want and move on.

You are talking like those are new classes that we are gonna get tied to and get tmog and stuff, but they are just new talents on top of the talent trees.

[Uda-uldum]

@Deveón-laughing-skull

They did, see above (or wowhead)

I know what they said. What did they do though?

We all know what needs to be done with PI and Aug in general. So untill I see that, they will just re-think something else as support.

I dont think they got the message “NO SUPPORT”. The message they got is “no PI minigame”.

So… I will defenetly keep saying they did not get the memo. Untill I see with my own eyes that they do what must be done.

Or… do we need to repeat all the feedback when Aug was in the PTR? And what a massive mistake it was to go live with that aberration…