🔥 War Within - Dead even before it came out

[Whisperer-defias-brotherhood (Whisperer)]

@Deveón-laughing-skull

Let’s stop with the covenants shall we? You’re wrong but keep strawmanning to link them with hero talents in WW, which your topic is all about.

Well your argument is I am wrong BECAUSE players dont care about player power and can compete even with weaker choice.
Then when asked about covenants you killed your own argument by claiming only half of the choices were actually viable.
And you’re right. Only half were. Exactly the half people flocked to.
Because players do care about player power.

@Eliquís-silvermoon

But you do partake in them at all.

No, why?

[Richardhuntr-silvermoon]

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

Well your argument is I am wrong BECAUSE players dont care about player power and can compete even with weaker choice.
Then when asked about covenants you killed your own argument by claiming only half of the choices were actually viable.

Please tell me how any of this relevant in a system where you unlock 100% of the choices by doing nothing special, and can freely choose between them.

In the covenant system, one had to spend weeks doing daily grinds to unlock a choice that may or may not benefit them. This was even worse if you didn’t like the covenant that had the skills you wanted. Name a single parallel between covenants and hero talents.

[Gilvion-ravencrest]

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

No, why?

Until you do you can’t speak for how easy and or hard it is to play it with good and bad specs, you simply can’t speak for it that way. And that’s fine but then just say it. Because no you don’t need to play meta to get 2k or even 2.5k, I’m proof, I play one of the worst and most confused specs in the game and I mae it to 2.5k.

And it wasn’t hard, the hardest part is getting in a group, but that’s not the devs problems that’s the players wanting to get carried.

[Whisperer-defias-brotherhood (Whisperer)]

@Richardhuntr-silvermoon

Please tell me how any of this relevant in a system where you unlock 100% of the choices by doing nothing special, and can freely choose between them.

It’s counter-argument proving his argument was wrong.

@Gilvion-ravencrest

Until you do you can’t speak for how easy and or hard it is to play it with good and bad specs, you simply can’t speak for it that way.

1. I can easily do that for the content I play
2. I didn’t claim HOW hard is it to play “wrong” covenant

What I did claim is, that it’s untrue to say only top 1% players care about player power. Clearly wrong.

@Gilvion-ravencrest

And it wasn’t hard, the hardest part is getting in a group, but that’s not the devs problems that’s the players wanting to get carried.

Right, because vast majority of community cares about player power.
See?
You’re all agreeing with me.
You just dislike the conclusion and pretend they don’t care about player power, yet you’re declined because of choosing spec with lower player power tied to it.

[Punyelf-draenor (Punyelf)]

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

The argument in SL was that it should’ve been aesthetic choice, because it is aesthetic choice and by tying power into that you are no longer offered the choice if you want to compete.

And the reason it was said it should have been an aesthetic choice was BECAUSE it tied you in.

If they’d done it as talent tree extensions to choose the abilities, being able to chop and change then no one would have cared. The problem was it involved two week questing to swap between covenants. They later fixed this issue with a band aid by making you able to swap freely in Oribos, however it was still not ideal but it was the best of a bad situation.

So the two are not comparable in that sense IMO. You are free to solely pursue this as people just wanted an aesthetic choice but there was a far wider issue in SL.

[Tah-earthen-ring]

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

War Within is repeating Shadowlands mistakes including no communication about issues.

Factually false.

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

Power tied to aesthetics. Which will force people to “choose” what blizzard developers will decide is the best numerically and then have the aesthetics of that.

There’s virtually no aesthetics tied to those talents. Just a name and maybe, in a few rare cases, a differently coloured spell or something, but nothing that’s actually impactful.
Stop making a mountain out of a molehill.

I get it if people wished hero talents were different; that they were actual class skins. I get that, but spreading nonsense about it doesn’t help anyone.

[Uda-uldum]

@Razgard-draenor

Ofc they can. PI currently is. It is a bonus that is good to have, but after the nerfs, it is not something that makes or breaks a spec (like udk in previous seasons).

But how did they achieve that? By nerfing udk.

Cant you see how that is not a way to balance specs? So UDk got nerfed and reworked because all its “thing” of burst CDs could not be sustained if paired up with PI and other externals. It was great in raid, but it really messed up M+ and PvP…

So… which spec will be gutted next because they cant just leave PI as a personal buff to priests instead of making it an external…

@Razgard-draenor

I believe that if they add 2-3 other support specs, it will be way better.

You TOTALLY forgot the first part of my argument. Aug is categorized as a DPS. Not support. Dont forget that.

So its balanced against other DPS, the role it effectively replaces in all group content.

BEFORE you even consider adding new specs, you have to create a “4rth role”.

So for example: Dungeon groups would be 1-1-1-3 (Healer, tank, support & 3 DDs).

If you add more Aug specs, you just add fodder to the flame. DONT.

@Razgard-draenor

About pi I have no strong feelings. Either it stays or it goes I do not particularly care, as long as it does not make priests being MANDATORY in each group (something that is far and away from happening cause of PI).

Funny. DPriest was meta in M+. Then it switched to SP. And at some other point, it will be Holy. Why is it that is ALWAYS a priest…

Ive been 3 seasons of DF literally fighting against the fact that there ALWAYS needs to be a priest in M+… And when I did do PvP in S1 and S2, I got SICK of being deleted in 15s of an arena because of burst damage + PI. While I, a shaman, cant use BL in arenas. Go figure why blizz decided to impose such a restriction…

So no. Im sorry but PI as an external has to go. Or turn it into a BL like the rest of us.

@Razgard-draenor

As for aug, it is abit hard to balance, because they have not decided if they want it to only increase the damage or the overall power (survivability) of the group.

Aug is impossible to balance. Mathematically. I have plenty of posts about that and im tired of repeating them.

You always end up in a catch 22 situation. Because a big part of the survivability Aug provides comes from buffing the healer. Something nobody else can do.

But if you remove the ability to buff healers, it becomes a nerfed out version of a devastation evoker… its a catch 22 situation. Nothing to do with blizz undecision.

[Børomir-silvermoon]

no it’s not xD
like, spear of bastion or night fae aoe cc+dmg ability, by it’s design, is supposed to be better in m+. Like there’s nothing they can do lol, they’re aoe spells with some form of cc, these covs will obviously be the meta for m+ and ofc they were for the whole expansion.

Plus blizz balances things every 2 weeks or so, it’s simply not possible for a build/spec to have 200% more dmg than another etc if that’s where your concern is lol.

It’s always about the meta slaves… a 5% more dmg spec/build simply doesn’t matter. How you play the build is what matters.

Recently in season 3 DF, everyone jumped on beast mastery hunt meta pick of the month, I jumped on my mm hunt tho, and it felt so good outperforming every single BM on all kinds of content again. After a month or so the spec got nerfed and nobody plays it anymore. And I’m here with my mm outperforming no matter the meta.
People don’t realize how important the skill of the player is, the meta is constantly changing, it simply does not matter.

[Deveón-laughing-skull]

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

BECAUSE players dont care about player power and can compete even with weaker choice.

Stop twisting words. I said you have a choice because it doesn’t matter until you go to the highest difficulty in either m+ or raiding. Timmy who rolls an alt and picks whatever talents that look cool without looking up a guide can still do normal raiding and mid m+ without anyone even noticing. Who even still inspects talents these days?

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

by claiming only half of the choices were actually viable.

Again: if you wanted to go high end pve.

I’m claiming you’re wrong because you keep clinging to covenants and comparing them to hero talents. You have yet to reply to this:

@Deveón-laughing-skull

Covenants far from Hero Talents, like really far.
Less choice than covenants so basically a new row of talent points, but in a different spot. If they just pasted them under the already existing spec/class tree you’d have remained silent. You literally always get the abilities, only a few passives are a choice.

because you can’t.

[Gilvion-ravencrest]

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

Right, because vast majority of community cares about player power.

No, stop twisting my words, I’m saying the reason people don’t accept you into their keys when you play is because they are lazy and want to get carried by someone else’s player power, they couldn’t care less about their own, they just want an easy time because they’re lazy, nothing to do with in game mechanics.

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

You just dislike the conclusion and pretend they don’t care about player power, yet you’re declined because of choosing spec with lower player power tied to it.

Player power matters, yes. If this was your only sentence I’d agree, but you then said this is why the new hero talents are bad, because it overrides the feeling of visuals for player power. Simply not true, they will function just like the current talents we have, which most people enjoy, a generalization but I’ll go with it for now. So you are correct purely theoretically, but in practice most people will still pick what they enjoy and are comfortable with because it’s fun, the thing that should drive all your decisions, what is the most fun, not what is the most meta.

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

that it’s untrue to say only top 1% players care about player power.

you are leavving the other half out, only 1% ccare about it so much they will switch everything just to be strong, most people will at best switch spec or go a class they already wanted to try anyways. In this case some people might care about it, true, but not enough for you to justify cancelling the entire thing, you’d be listening to sweats complain about the meta they created in the first place and removing fun for the rest of us. So take a chill pill and enjoy the game however you want to, if thats playing the meta you do that, but it aint for me so stop talking on my behalf.

[Deveón-laughing-skull]

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

that it’s untrue to say only top 1% players care about player power. Clearly wrong.

once again twisting words and putting up strawman arguments.
I never talked about caring, I talked about being viable, as in “you HAVE to pick x talent else you won’t be able to complete a +26 key”. You can care about player power and not pick the right talents, gear is also a factor in player power.

[Razgard-draenor]

@Uda-uldum

You TOTALLY forgot the first part of my argument. Aug is categorized as a DPS. Not support. Dont forget that.

So its balanced against other DPS, the role it effectively replaces in all group content.

BEFORE you even consider adding new specs, you have to create a “4rth role”.

So for example: Dungeon groups would be 1-1-1-3 (Healer, tank, support & 3 DDs).

If you add more Aug specs, you just add fodder to the flame. DONT.

I do not disagree with any of that. Just stating that I believe that those hurdles are worth IMO to add other support specs, not saying it can be done overnight without spending time addressing issues you brought up.

@Uda-uldum

Funny. DPriest was meta in M+. Then it switched to SP. And at some other point, it will be Holy. Why is it that is ALWAYS a priest…

S1 it was not meta, S2 it became meta because of a plethora of reasons (pi, damage, mind sooth, and especially MD in those dungeons). Now in s3 disc is a pretty good healer. I do not see pi being the cause of that, because if you remove pi from the priests and add it to let’s say pres or rshammy, they will not become meta overnight.

@Uda-uldum

You always end up in a catch 22 situation. Because a big part of the survivability Aug provides comes from buffing the healer. Something nobody else can do.

But if you remove the ability to buff healers, it becomes a nerfed out version of a devastation evoker… its a catch 22 situation. Nothing to do with blizz undecision.

This is what I mean by balance.

They will either have to:

1. balance aug against other specs in damage (and remove their ability to buff survivability/healers/tanks)
2. balance aug against other specs in survivability/utility so they do less damage than a dps to counteract their added utility.
3. leave them op, introduce/change more specs to supports at an equal power level, and make a 4th role that you need.

But I generally agree with you on the problems, just I am not sure about the solutions.

[Richardhuntr-silvermoon]

@Whisperer-defias-brotherhood

The argument in SL was that it should’ve been aesthetic choice, because it is aesthetic choice and by tying power into that you are no longer offered the choice if you want to compete.

I totally agree with this, it helps to like the faction / whatever you are doing dailies for, for months on end.

However the hero talents as far as I know require 0 commitment other than doing tasks you’d be doing anyway, so there is no comparison, thus destroying the foundation of this argument.

If you have information that suggests I’m wrong and that in TWW:

• You will be locked in to your chosen hero talents with a heavy penalty for swapping them and;
• You will have to complete daily and story quests that relate to that specific hero talent choice and;
• The hero talent choices limit you by denying you access to other talents

Then perhaps, we can talk about how this system might be similar to covenants.

I have no idea why this tagged you punyelf, so sorry!

[Børomir-silvermoon]

@Gilvion-ravencrest

you are leavving the other half out, only 1% ccare about it so much they will switch everything just to be strong, most people will at best switch spec or go a class they already wanted to try anyways. In this case some people might care about it, true, but not enough for you to justify cancelling the entire thing, you’d be listening to sweats complain about the meta they created in the first place and removing fun for the rest of us. So take a chill pill and enjoy the game however you want to, if thats playing the meta you do that, but it aint for me so stop talking on my behalf.

Finally, someone who gets it.

• Ppl got crazy with BM hunters in s3 launch, I picked mm, outperformed all of them. Bm got nerfed, everyone stopped playing it, was it worth it?

• Ppl were playing night fae/bastion fury in shadowlands, I was playing venthyr, I outperformed every single pug group I joined, and I loved every second of it, simply because there’s NOTHING better than being THAT guy who’s top of the dps meter with the most cringe off meta, and theoretically “bad” build/spec of all time.

[Deveón-laughing-skull]

@Børomir-silvermoon

simply because there’s NOTHING better than being THAT guy who’s top of the dps meter with the most cringe off meta, and theoretically “bad” build/spec of all time.

Amen to that. I love to minmax like the next guy when it comes to gear, but I very much enjoy playing Hpriest, and I know that pisses people off but I just laugh in their face.

[Uda-uldum]

@Razgard-draenor

I do not disagree with any of that. Just stating that I believe that those hurdles are worth IMO to add other support specs, not saying it can be done overnight without spending time addressing issues you brought up.

ALL the issues of Aug stem from the fact that you balance Aug to OTHER dps specs. Because it replaces a DPS roll in content.

You think adding ANOTHER aug in that situation wont just DOUBLE the issues?

How is that even logical?

So yes, please address the issues I brought up. And this time, think about what you are saying.

@Razgard-draenor

I do not see pi being the cause of that, because if you remove pi from the priests and add it to let’s say pres or rshammy, they will not become meta overnight.

Im not saying RShaman will become meta. Im saying: How would you balance RShaman that brings NOTHING vs. a priest that does?

By saying: Well the RShaman heals for more. OK. But how would that be fair to Priests (aka: Priest cant pass healer checks because they have PI). Or SP in DPS department: Sorry, SP cant do competitive DPS because you got PI. Which was its treatment in S1 by the way.

Let me be clear… BL, the first “external” to exist in the game was given to not only the Alliance, but to other specs as well. WHY?

And why did “mark of the wild” from druids go from an OP thing to a tyni 3% vers to EVERYONE in the party? WHY?

Because externals give problems. Thats why. And the only 2 sensible solutions are to either give them to everyone, or nerf them so that nobody has them.

See where im going with this?

@Razgard-draenor

But I generally agree with you on the problems, just I am not sure about the solutions.

The solution is a 4rth role, with more specs… or… roll back the “support” concept (aka, deleting Aug) and starting over from scratch.

Those are the only options.

[Gilvion-ravencrest]

Man I don’t usually swing that way but from your name to your set to your opinion, may I just say you are so cool and awesome, also boromor is the best!

@Deveón-laughing-skull

Amen to that. I love to minmax like the next guy when it comes to gear, but I very much enjoy playing Hpriest, and I know that pisses people off but I just laugh in their face.

Amen, you are also equally awesome and cool, lets go skill over pick!

[Richardhuntr-silvermoon]

I do have a pertinent question though, why is there a sub-thread in the middle of this thread relating to Aug balancing, Aug evoker and support specs in general have nothing to do with the discussion of if hero talents are like covenants, we have other threads for this.

[Børomir-silvermoon]

@Gilvion-ravencrest

Man I don’t usually swing that way but from your name to your set to your opinion, may I just say you are so cool and awesome, also boromor is the best!

Thank you, if you enjoy that kind of epic awesomeness, be sure to check me at @witcherpie on YT, where this post might get on if there’s enough content lol

[Gilvion-ravencrest]

I will certainly ddo so when I get the chance, glad to hear your spreading the world of being awesome

@Richardhuntr-silvermoon

I do have a pertinent question though, why is there a sub-thread in the middle of this thread relating to Aug balancing, Aug evoker and support specs in general have nothing to do with the discussion of if hero talents are like covenants, we have other threads for this.

Oh it’s cause she’s a known hater of all things support for her own reasons, which is fine but I had enough of that debate back when I created a somehwhat fleshed out class idea of a bard and one of the suggested specs was a support so she just replied with “no” after I put in hours of work, but we debated for abit and now I just dont get in her way anymore, simply a difference in opinion.

Thread from me here

@Gilvion-ravencrest

New Class: Bard (Minstrel)