This, exactly. I get how it works, but it shouldn’t work that way where you get penalized through no fault of your own.
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But by far not that big as it is for healers and I already told you why. I mostly play DPS just in case, you think I argue from a healer perspective. But let me try to explain it once again.
The chances for a DPS to get into lobby that isn’t within an mmr range of lets say max 100 is incredible low, as there are simply more than enough DPS q’ing. Also have DPS enough options to carry the game, not every single spec, but basically all can at least increase the chances of winning, if they support the healer by using def cds properly, the other dps by at least cc/interrupt the enemy healer and so on.
Sure, some specs have it easier to get to higher rating than other specs, like some comps in 3s have it easier than other comps, but in total it remains the same. If you can’t get up, the issue is mostly yourself from my perspective. With enough games, you equal out all bad luck and random factors that might decide rounds against you here and there.
And here is the difference to healers. They are often getting into lobbies wide outside their range and their possibilities to shine highly depends on the DPS. The can have sick plays and heal like a king, if the dps aren’t able to kill, they can’t win. They simply can’t make the plays to kill someone. Compare it with a goalkeeper: They can catch every single ball, if nobody in his team is making a goal on the other side, they aren’t able to win!
Healers mostly have lobbies ending with 3-3 but having 3-3 in a lobby 300 mmr below yours will end up in dropping rating and mmr, so they have hard times to get to higher ratings. They obviously still can do it, but for them it’s a lot harder than it is for dps, because dps usually don’t get in lobbies that far away from their mmr.
So yes, in my opinion, only healers are allowed to complain. For us dps the system works not great, but also not too bad. Could be a lot better, but working somehow! At least if you play enough games to minimize random factors and bad luck.
Ah, so they should get punished even more in the first place? Getting insanely punished for the losing streak? You wan’t to know it what kind of complains that will end?
How can I lose 100 cr for playing 2-4?
My superiority complex?
Just because I think, that anyone can climb the ladder and support this assumption with enough examples that most successful 3s players are also very successful in Solo Shuffle? What I am missing so far is at least one example of a well known great 3s player, who wasn’t able to make it in solo shuffle, even when really trying.
Do you have just one example that would support your opinion?
My “bias” is also based on observations and conversations with healer friends. I often see healers in my lobbies whose MMR is sometimes 300+ away from the average MMR.
And this was also confirmed by some healers as this is or at least was the rule rather than the exception. I haven’t paid attention to this for a while or asked whether this is still the case.
Think outside the box? Isn’t that more your limitation? I get that you don’t like the mmr system and I already agreed, that I also wished a better working system. But unlike you, I am not looking for excuses. I am just playing the game, get better and reach higher spots.
But since you prefer to flame and insult now, I won’t continue this crap. Enjoy your time and keep crying.
Ah, ye. We should ask the devs to have a ref in every game deciding how much rating you deserve to gain/drop. But even then guys like you won’t be happy, because your personal impression of your skill is basically always differently from what other people think about your performance.
I did so well, but still lose. Can happen, but with enough games, you will also have enough rounds, where you got carried through. So it all equals out.
Agreed, though the worse part of those games is you rarely feel like you learn from then and don’t improve yourself during those.
Then minor gain vs significant loss of rating also contributes to this.
The -50+ rating from a 2/6 due to someone in your team doing a simple mistake once vs
The +20 or less rating from a 4/6 win when someone in the other team made a similar mistake.
In general it’s the feeling of wasting your time when your hours of effort (queue + playtime) can be lost from 1 game where you just didn’t sync well with the team.
Or, or…they just shouldn’t matchmake you with people vastly above ( or below) your skill level? Isn’t that the entire point of a matchmaking system, to get fair games? The game shouldn’t put you in a round where it things “Yeah you have an 80% chance of winning/losing this”
Again, completely defeats the point of SBBM. “I did well, but lost because the game decided i should play with people much better than me so I lose slightly less” shouldn’t be balanced out by “I did bad but won because the game put me with people much worse than me”
It should be “I did well, but these people who are actually of the same skill as me did better, so they edged it” And then you drop a reliable, predictable amount, or the inverse.
Balancing it by the extremes and hoping it averages out is just laughable bad and I don’t understand why you seem personally offended that people are ridiculing that design.
Yep, you don’t learn anything when you stomp people who don’t know how to use defensives / massively worse than you, just as you don’t learn anything when you get clapped by somebody who is extremely better than you.
But that only happens to healer, not dps. It is simply the issue, that too many DPS are q’ing, compared to healer. So healers often get listed in lobbies below their mmr, which results in being harder for them to climb.
I already wrote that in my answer, just read the first part of it.
But this is often just a subjective impression. Happens to everyone. Often enough we think we did great, but haven’t.
They don’t balance around it, it just balance out itself. People like the rogue complain that the system wouldn’t work because of the extremes. But that is just wrong, because the extremes happens in both directions.
The system itself mostly works, at least for DPS, because you mostly have lobbies around your mmr and because every eventuality equals out with enough games.
The system just have issues with healer, because they are often enough in Lobbies way below their mmr and therefore often drop rating, even when playing 4-2. So here I must agree that it often enough feels not rewarding at all for them.
But the rogue complains, that it is for all players that way and here I disagree. Again, I am not saying that the system is doing great, I am just saying it’s working okay for dps.
Pretty much every lobby I’ve been in has had a consensus on the person who shouldn’t be there by round 3. I played a game earlier for example where one healer was 6/6 (other obvious 0/6) And you think “how can the game possibly think these two are anywhere near each other” For everyone else this meant 3/3 and no changes. (presumably because when we won it was with the good healer who had much higher MMR and when we lost it was because the bad healer, with lower MMR, so it balanced out)
Ultimately scenarios like the above being possible just make entire games feel pointless, so it doesn’t just impact the healers.
That’s not a good way to balance though. It might technically have the same outcome as if it was actually balanced, but the critical thing it misses is 50% of your games at least are just awful stomp fests.
Indeed. The longer fights is usually the most enjoyable to a point. If you can’t write what you’ve learned on a piece of paper after a match, then it wasn’t a good one.
Then there’s the countless amount of rounds which has been literally 1 global away from a win, those hit hard but shouldn’t cause you to tilt.
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two good games and you can climb 100 or even more rating back though. Losing rating never feels good.
Yep, and this is true, what’s there to learn from “They were just way better than me” - I’ve had casual games of Apex where you see people with top 500 in their profile and you’re like “aite I was never winning that”
In wow it seems the same. Amount of times I, somebody who has never even cracked 2k see people who have a previous seasons glad mount in a game is mad. Like I haven’t cracked 2k ever and the game is like “yeah this guy who cracked 50 wins at 2.4k last season is probs about your level” is a joke!
I haven’t got the time (or probably skill) to do that, ever.
Big difference between “Ah man that was close” and “great game decided i’m a top 500 this one” That’s the crux of the issue. People understand they can’t win them all, nor do they expect to…idk why this keeps getting brought up like a “You’re just salty you lost”. People are simply not wanting to play against people vastly better than they are or to be put in games where the game says “these people are so much worse than you, that even if you win you’re getting nout”.
That’s BS for a start, I play a Druid healer and I make plays for kills all the time. I’m not the only class with CC and a little damage. You make some other good points, but that doesn’t mean only Healers are allowed to complain, that’s still incredibly narrowminded. DPS can get screwed over in their own ways. In the example I gave about only being partnered with the star player twice, a healer in those games is guaranteed to go 3-3 and potentially not lose any rating. For a DPS they will only go 2-6, and most definitely lose rating. Healers aren’t the only ones to get the short end of the stick.
I didn’t imply that in the slightest, it’s just an example of how the system can punish people through sheer chance and dumb luck. You don’t get to choose your partners and sometimes they can throw games, which negatively impacts you. Or you don’t get paired with the ace in the hole a fair amount of times, which also negatively impacts you. MMR needs to also be calculated based on personal performance, the circumstances surrounding why your team lost or won. i.e., are you on a team with the person who kept dying, did they use all their defensive cooldowns… etc. It’s the only way to make it fairer. Take my previous example, if you only win 2 games because you were only paired with the person that won 6 games twice, the system should take that into account as the people playing with that person had a clear advantage.
Yes, because you hold these people on a pedestal saying DPS aren’t allowed to complain because “anyone” can climb. They’re not average players you numbskull, there are plenty of posts from people who normally reach rival, but if they didn’t start playing at the very beginning of the season they get stuck below because of of the way the current MMR system can punish you for mistakes and pairings completely outside of your control. That and the queue times, if you are a casual player, it can literally be impossible due to not having enough literal time to queue and climb the ladder.
Exactly, you’ve kind of proved it already by saying only healers are allowed to complain, in-spite of all the ways DPS get screwed over too. Which I can assure you, the vast majority of people in these forums thinks is very silly.
Saying only healers are allowed to complain, alongside thinking anyone can climb without taking personal circumstance or the class they are playing into account, as well as all the ways dumb luck can screw you over through no fault of your own, especially in the lower MMR, is a prime example of not thinking outside the box. I don’t care if you’re insulted or not. If you want to perceive it as a flame go right ahead, I’m just making my own observations.
There’s plenty of information out there that shows a much bugger picture, that most definitely proves that not only healers get the short end of the stick, and that the MMR system unfairly treats DPS and Healers alike.
It’s this exact attitude which is so absurd… Treating everyone that complains for very valid reasons, like they’re being an idiot because they “don’t understand MMR”. Which let me tell you, says far more about you. All people are doing is highlighting that the current system unfairly penalises you and that something is not right. In a competitive game mode, having a large portion of your CR decided by dumb luck, is not okay. And you wonder why people think you are defending the system when you make statements like this… Oh but you disagree with the system, that means your being obnoxious on purpose then.
thats why there is MMR and i can guarantee you that most of the players you face at your MMR actually belong there otherwise they would not be there. If they would be so much better they would instantly climb rating. Its just an excuse you make up in your head. Solo Shuffle is super inflated thats why the mmr works pretty good there. Works less good in 2s and 3s to be honest right now.
I dont really understand your frustration. You have 51% winrate. You are exactly where you belong. By time you will improve and climb up in rating. It works like this in literally every game. Nobody is gatekeeping you.
That is true. However loosing 40+ rating from a game only to have the next 4/6 or 5/6 net you +20 or sometimes less, that is more of a gutpunch if anything.
It’s probably confirmation bias, but i experince that i loose more rating vastly quicker than i can hope to gain.
I got to 1820 rating, then freefalled down to 1600, perhaps I was just lucky with my games that took me there.
Then why is there nearly always somebody who goes 5/6 6/6 in every SS game? That is inherently not balanced - it’s also not true, because you need to get a winstreak at your MMR to climb CR, which is made harder by the MMR yo-yoing.
Because it changes every single bloody season where “somebody belongs” but the ratings needed for the rewards don’t…
Have you actually read anything here? The entire issue is that some games you get put in with people much worse…and some games with people much harder.
What’s the literal point of MMR and CR not being tied together, If you have to keep pushing MMR to get CR to go up. That isn’t how it works in other games, other games have a steady curve that require a higher and higher win rate / kill rate to get into the next bracket that is…and here’s the key point PREDICTABLE and RELIABLE.
Apex tells you throughout the match what your score will be and it updates as you earn kills / survive for longer so you know if you make it into the top 3 with X kills you’ll get Y score. The game actually trusts that it has put you with people of a similar ability to do that.
If the brackets in WoW updated based on the actual difficulty of getting into them each season it’d be fine, but they don’t, they’re static.
if the ceiling on something changes 6/700 CR being seasons that’s dumb.
That’s not true, the system can easily gatekeep you because of its design flaws in Solo Shuffle. I’ve won a few games, for example, 4/6 5/6 5/6 in a row and my MMR and rating has started to climb, then something stupid happens, like being paired with someone who throws your games, or only being paired with the Ret 2 times who 6-0’s every session, and losing more rating than I won in my last 3 sessions…putting me back lower than I was before… Chance and dumb luck that affects your rating has no place in competitive PvP. In this case it can’t be avoided, so the rating system needs to be adjusted to compensate.
MMR may be working as intended, but it was designed around 3v3 matches in-which everyone is accountable. Solo Shuffle has too much random chance in it to use the same system. It needs a system that takes everyone’s personal performance into account and the circumstances surrounding the wins. A flat “you lost and your MMR was higher than said players so you lose more” system does not take all the foibles of Solo Shuffle into account. That and needing a win streak… They need to remove that requirement immediately.
It’s not as black and white as you and others are trying to make out.
yesterday i got multiple 5:1 on my alt ele up to 2400 mmr and then tanked down to 2150 mmr and got 3:3 a few times at that mmr. It all depends on your lobby, how you perform, your mates, luck.
One “better” player cant have that big of an impact to 100% win all games anyway especially not at your rating.
you need to win more rounds than lose in long term. Doesnt need to be a streak or whatever. More rounds won long term = more CR long term. Its that easy.
and this season its propaply the easiest to get Rating in the history of Arena because of solo shuffle.
if the people your face were much better than you they would not be at your mmr because they would be winning alot more games and be higher than you.
you are thinking waay too complicated. You just need to win more than to lose. Thats all. I played several specs in solo shuffle and its working totally fine. There are some exceptions with healers when the enemy healer is having placement matches but other than that its working as intended.
your mates making mistakes happens in every competetive soloq gamemode. Thats part of it.
ah so you want to gain rating even though you lost because somebody in your team died and it wasnt your fault? Nice logic.
LONG TERM YOU BENEFIT FROM ENEMY MISTAKES AS MUCH AS YOU LOSE GAMES FROM YOUR TEAMMATES MISTAKES!!! WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?
which is technically not possible
it pretty much is. Thats why good players are on top like always.
The system has some flaws but its NOT the reason you are not able to climb rating LONG TERM.
“inflated my MMR by 300 because I got 5:1 in multiple games” is what that actually means. “Depends on your lobby” - you mean if the game puts you in a lobby with people much worse with you, so you stomp?
Last 5 i’ve played someone has either had 5/6 or 6/6 so…
Completely depends on when you win the rounds. If you win when the game thinks you were likely to, you get much less which can be offset by one loss the game didn’t think you were supposed to have.
Not true really is it, people who end up at 2.4k play in those lobbies too when they’re grinding up. Shaman in last game I played who went 5/1 has several duelists on their profile…
It’s not just the mistakes, only Healers are paired evenly, DPS are not. There’s no guarantee you’ll get paired with the same person 3 times.
The skill gap is HUGE sub 1500, the MMR is all over the place, even for DPS. You may get paired with the bad DPS 3 times and only paired with the good DPS 2 times. So no, I just don’t want to lose as much rating as if I were responsible when there were elements outside of my control screwing me over.
Obviously for you to comprehend.
A lot of good players started playing at the beginning of the season when the MMR yoyoing wasn’t as bad. And you’re also forgetting that the queue times are horrendous sub 1500. My time is precious and I have alts I need to do things on. Realistically if I really wanted to climb, I would have to spend more time sitting in the queue than actually playing Solo Shuffle, which makes the BS moments that knock you down sting that much more. I’ve consistently won more games than I’ve lost every week, but I couldn’t play for 2 weeks over Christmas and got stuck in low MMR hell. If you genuinely understood just how bad people are in the lower ratings and how unfair the pairings can be, you’d understand.
Yep, game i literally just finished, MM hunter who nobody was defense CDing / prioing goes 5/6, I was with him twice Instead I get the fury warr who misses spear and LoS’s healer constantly.
Being possible, yes. But how often do you have such games? And in the long run, you will also have lobbies where the other healer will have a 6-0.
Agree, but there is no other way to balance it, without spending massive time into it. What you guys are asking for, isn’t to balance the rating. What you guys want is to have more rating at the end of the day, but that isn’t how balancing work!
You obviously can support your mates to kill someone, as the dps can support you by pressing cds to peel or to reduce dmg incoming, but they can’t take over your job healing the group, neither can you do their job by killing people. Your options are very limited in that regard. A bit damage support, a bit support by cc’ing, but not making any setups and kill people with your damage.
In my opinion it does. DPS can definitely climb the ladder with the current system. Healers can as well, but they have it a lot harder. Therefore they can complain, but DPS have no real reason for it.
They might not be totally happy with it, that’s fine, the system is deffo not perfect. But the system is good enough to work for dps.
And I gave you the opposite direction of what would happen, if they wouldn’t do it the way it is. Wasn’t it you who told me to think outside the box?
How am I holding people on a pedestal by saying that?! Sounds more like your inferiority complex is speaking up. Buhu, he said anyone can climb but I am hurdstucked. And since I am Whaazz 2.0 it must be the system!
To prove anything, you must come up with something that would support your point. I asked for an example of a well known good 3s player who wasn’t able to make it in solo shuffle, even when really trying, but so far I got nothing but silence.
So maybe it’s your bias that doesn’t fit with reality? 
Therefore again: If you are unhappy with your rating and can’t climb any further as dps, even though you really tried and played enough games, then you reached the mmr where you belong. Chances that you are there by accident are below 1%!
Anyways, you deserve that incoming ignore as you start to annoy me like crazy but also try to hide your insecure with laughable attempts to insult me.
No, I want to gain OR lose rating at a reliable predictable rate and not be yo-yo’d around based on arbitrary things like “was there a glad climbing in this game solo” or “was one healer actually supposed to be at 2k but they couldn’t get a game so it put them in my lobby”
Maybe…maybe they should put a massive amount of time into it? Shuffle makes it clear that there is a large amount of the playerbase wanting to play small scale PVP, but I bet it dries up once people get hard stuck at 1.4 or w/e and can’t get any of the actual rewards, because in a couple of week w/e when everybody has full glad gear it’s gonna be completely unrewarding.
Last 8 I have played had one person going 5 to 1 or 6 to nothing, I’ve even begun logging it.