A Golden opportunity


#1

Hello everyone.

I made a topic a couple of months ago and decided to add some of my thoughts to it, from what I observed so far.

"The main reason I created this post is: many others, myself included we tend to blame Blizzard writters for the story inconsistencies.
I my case for not fitting my ideal of the honourable Horde.

But that being said when reading the first part of a “Good War” I was baffled not because I believe Sylvanas is right but because Blizzard seems to know their player base, better, than we know ourselves.

I believe each player here is the living embodiment of the lore.
For example:

  • Zakkaru: troll lore;
  • Arctur: human lore;
  • Erevien: Blood Elf lore;
  • Zarao: Forsaken lore;
  • Kalibas: Night Elf lore;
    There are other players but this examples were just given so you have an idea where I am coming from.

With that being said it’s my opinion that the lore is meant to be something the player base wants otherwise it won’t sell.
In example, in legion expansion I loved the concept of Alliance and the Horde working together, but a lot of players voiced their opinion against it. World of Peacecraft they called it.
So Blizzard made BfA.

With that being out of the way, I will clarify my points, which probably will be incomplete.
Sorry it 1:18 and I am writing on my phone. It would be different if I could do it on a laptop, with proper quotes and links.
This is what I can provide you for the moment.

I believe there’s several parts of this narrative that we can relate to.

  • Saurfang mind: that would be me, the honor Horde. The guy who has been in legion and is happy with what the Horde as achieved. Peace is there, no more war.
  • Sylvanas mind: enough being said, everyone that loves her or just hates Anduin and the Alliance.

Now for the parts I quoted.

“I believe the exiles of Gilneas will never forgive the Horde for driving them away. "

  • Araphant and everyone that loves, Greymane.

I believe the living humans of Lordaeron think it is blasphemy that my people still hold their city.

  • Arctur, Northgrave and everyone that likes Human lore.

I believe the ancient divide between our allies in Silvermoon and their kin in Darnassus is not easily mended.” There was a smile on Sylvanas’s face. It was not a pleasant one.

  • Erevien and everyone that loves Blood Elf lore.
  • Kalibas and everyone that loves Night Elf lore.

“I believe the Darkspear tribe hasn’t forgotten who drove them from their islands,” she continued.

  • Zakkaru and everyone that loves troll lore.

“I believe every orc your age remembers being imprisoned for years in filthy camps, wallowing in despair and surviving on human scraps.

  • Every Orc player that hates the Alliance.

" I believe every human remembers the tales of the terrible Horde that caused so much destruction in its first invasion, and I believe they blame every orc for that, no matter what your people have done to redeem yourselves."

  • Arctur, Northgrave and everyone that likes human lore again.

“And I remember very well that I and my first Forsaken were once loyal Alliance citizens. We died for that banner, and our reward was to be hunted as vermin.”

  • Zarao and everyone that hat loves Sylvanas and Forsaken lore.

The point where my believes in peace are countered by Sylvanas:
“I believe that there will be no permanent peace with the Alliance—not unless we win it on the battlefield on our terms. And believing that, answer this, Saurfang: what use is delaying the inevitable?”By the spirits, she is cold.”

Sylvanas’s eyes did not waver, even in the face of his rage. “If I dedicated myself to peace with the Alliance, would it last a year?”“Yes,” Saurfang said curtly.“How about two years? Five? Ten? Fifty?”Saurfang felt the trap closing in on him, and he did not like it. “We fought side-by-side against the Burning Legion. That creates bonds that are not easily broken.” “Time breaks every bond.” Sylvanas leaned across the table. Her words flew like arrows. “What do you believe? Will peace last five years or fifty?”

Ogrimar defenses in case of Alliance attack :
“We are,” she said. “You are the only living creature I know who has conquered both Stormwind and Orgrimmar, Saurfang. You say a direct attack on Stormwind is impossible with our forces today. Is the same true for the Alliance? Do we have enough natural defenses in Orgrimmar to repel a surprise assault?”No, Saurfang concluded instantly. He rebelled against that thought, but every counterargument he could think of died quickly. Orgrimmar was more exposed than Stormwind. Its port was outside the city walls and thus was vulnerable. The civil war against Garrosh Hellscream had proved that. It would not be simple to crack open Orgrimmar again—Saurfang had spent years making sure of it—but it was possible, and he knew how it could happen. Draw off our navy, land troops in Durotar and Azshara, isolate the city, begin the siege from two directions, wait for the city to starve … “It’s my duty to make sure that doesn’t happen, Warchief.” “And if it does?”Saurfang laughed bitterly. “Then the Horde charges into battle and dies honorably that day, because there will be nothing else left for us but a slow death inside these walls.”
Sylvanas did not laugh with him. “It is my duty to stop that from happening.”

Anduin as the main reason why the Horde should not fear the Alliance:
“The boy in Stormwind will not start a war tomorrow,” Saurfang said.Her eyebrows lowered. “With Genn Greymane in his ear? We will see.”That was a concern, Saurfang had to concede. In the thick of the fighting against the Burning Legion, Greymane had launched a mission to kill Sylvanas. It had gotten some of Stormwind’s few remaining airships destroyed.There were whispers that Greymane had ordered the attack without Anduin’s permission, but as far as Saurfang knew, Greymane had not been punished. The implications of that were troubling, and every possible explanation led to same conclusion: the old worgen would always drive the Alliance toward war against the Horde.Sylvanas’s eyes glittered. “And the boy is becoming a man. What if that man decides that he has no choice but to launch a war on us?”

Consider this just a pure speculation exercise on player character, where the narrative describes each one of us.

That was my point.
It’s a hard exercise, but considering that Blizzard wants to fuel hatred between players of each faction and they already stated continuity doesn’t matter, because it hinders the creators, I would say they did their job."

There was also this very interesting reply from Kernns:

"“Was Sylvanas right ?”

And after reading your post it depends do you agree that people can’t forgive/forget the crimes of the past there will always be war.

I mean I know as a game yes always war be we cant see it like that as a (gameplay reason) remember this is after events of legion so I don’t agree with her not after azeroth united to fight the legion the greatest treat azeroth or any faction has ever faced. I know this whole unite and face something isn’t new but this was the legion we are talking about and this time we didn’t have a “wrath gate” event.

Sylvanas has single handed ruined any chance of some what peace on azeroth if you like, instead she has relite the flames of old hatred all by herself."

I will analyse this cinematic from the perspective as lore being a reflection of Story forum discussions:

We start the cinematic with Anduin arriving for a meeting with Saurfang.
It’s interesting.
Saurfang wasn’t raised by humans as Thrall, but unlike Garrosh he had experience with the Alliance in Azeroth.
Here we can see a Orc having a honest conversation, with a Human, without any hatred, lies and it’s not Thrall.

There was another topic I created, which had this interesting reply:

From Brigante:

"I really do think that BfA is not just a War between the Horde and Alliance, it is a War for the Horde’s very -SOUL-. What have they become? How did they allow themselves to become that, and how, having reached that nadir, can they climb from where they are…How can they go back to Thrall’s Horde, and not Sylvanas’ Horde?

That’s the story, from Horde side,

From Alliance side it is that tangled thread of “When does Justice stop becoming Justice, and is in fact Vengeance, Once it becomes Vengeance, how far is -Too Far- and that Vengeance transmutes into something more terrible, and the killing becomes the reason itself, rather than retribution, when it is no longer justice for what was done to you, but the sheer unholy joy of killing, when do you stop and look at yourself in the mirror without seeing a monster…Can you?”

Both stories are pretty complex, if you look at them that way.

I don’t think BfA is a weak story. As I say, the two global superpowers in our own world fought continual wars by proxy (Though thankfully never a direct one) for almost five decades, before one collapsed under its internal pressures. Its a realistic scenario. Want to take it further? They did so after having united against a common threat that was a danger to -everyone-! Sound familiar? Take your pick, that’s either Legion to BfA, or its Earth from 1945-1991."

If we look at the cinematic that’s exactly what Saurfang and Anduin discuss.
Saurfang mentioning, how Thrall and Vol’Jin were not the true heirs, of Blackhad bloody legacy, Sylvanas was, the Horde, doomed to be shackled by the chains of the past.

This is very interesting, how many times it was discussed in this forum that

  • Thrall was the exception not the rule.
  • Sylvanas was always evil.
  • The current Horde was no better than the first Horde.

Anduin replying that the Horde had no exclusives to regrets, the Alliance was also haunted by the ghosts of the past.
Not to the Horde level obviously, but people who were blinded by vengeance, as we can see in Jaina’s nightmares.

Also interesting.

  • Daelin ignoring Jaina’s pledge to not attack Thrall’s Horde.
    Not the one that was portrayed in Vanilla, with Sylvanas and the Forsaken, but the one, that came from Mount Hyjal, with Orcs, Tauren and Darkspear Trolls.
    The one that fought besides her, Malfurion and Tyrande, against Archimonde.
  • Arthas as a reminder of what happens when someone’s blind by vengeance, falling in to madness.

It clarifies that Arthas and Daelin were considered, part of the Alliance, or at least her history.

Anduin stating he belived in Saurfang Horde a honorable Horde.
How many trimes did the Horde fought along side the Alliance now ?
I think it was amazing in the mist of the chaos, that was the aftermath of WoT, that Anduin, was the only one, that wanted to know why the Horde did what they did.
They had just came from a campaign, where his father fought along side the Horde, against the Legion.

Saurfang saying he never knew what was honor.
How many times it was debated from on the Alliance side that the Horde had no honor and by more pragmatic Horde players that honor was nothing ?
Well we finally had a answer.
Honor is just a character moral sense, for me at least.
Is anyone surprised by the way, that Sylvanas has no honor (morals) ?

“We could not fill the chasm between the Horde and the Alliance, if we laboured a 1000 years, you know this.”
It comes as a sad news for me, because that means there’s just too much blood between both factions.

What is surpising is, after this statement: how many players stated that the Horde and the Alliance are “holding hands, peace loving.”
Which in my opinion clearly states that the way we see conflict differs a LOT.

Anduin than asked: “Than what are we fighting for ?”
Saurfang answer, was rather interesting, the Alliance and the Horde fight for Azeroth.
Which means for me, they fight each other for Azeroth but they also fight to protect Azeroth from anyone who seeks to destroy the planet they live in.

Sylvanas doesn’t fight for Azeroth, she fights for herself, as always, that’s why she is the enemy.

I have criticized this narrative, many times, but in the end I have to concede that, it doesn’t matter how it started, it maters how it will ended and for me this is a Golden oppurtunity, to study how the community reacts.

  • How many players stand for peace and I don’t mean “Ideal well writen, peace narrative”, I mean peace when the oppurtinity arrives.
  • How many players stand for war and faction conflict, without, resorting to justifications as in the past narratives, because now the Alliance is led by Anduin and the Horde has Thrall, Baine, Lor’themar and many other leaders who do not see conflict with the best eyes and logicaly are open for peace negotiations, because a good part of them already talked with the Alliance in the past, wether if it’s Jaina or Anduin.
  • How many players stand, not for their faction, but because of x race, or a group of races, only.
  • How many players are loyal to the foundation ideals of their factions, even if it means doing what they don’t like vs players, that believe, conflict is the reason for their faction existence.
  • How many players, play the the faction because of x character.

Thanks for your attention.
Cheers.


#2

Sorry, I’m not sure if I understood your point at all. The narrative isn’t as bad as we think it is, because some characters have perspectives that directly reflect some we have here in the forums?

Well, at most that could account for some of the character hypocrisy/inconsistency we see in game. But as far as I’m concerened character consistency is waaaaaay down on the list of Blizzard’s writing problems.

But those didn’t just arise in BfA, of course, they just became more blatant.


(Zarao) #3

The story shouldn’t be created around player preferences. That’s called fanservice and is anathema to good storytelling.

It should be created independently and let players themselves be drawn to it naturally.
You create a base, work on it, expand it, and offer alternatives equally developed for every taste you want to deal with.
And to do the above, a writer should follow on a set of rules such as consistency, plausible character development, and logic.
Add to the mix the need to balance opposed views (And MMO mechanics), and I’m of the opinion that you need a form of parity and being capable to not rely on one side in detriment of the other.

BfA failed in most of that. And I don’t need to remove my bias in order to see it.


#4

Regarding the community reactions.

The best thing for them would be to publish how many Horde ONLY players have chosen Saurfang or Sylvanas.

I would love to see percentages on how many have chosen one or the other. That’s the only metric that would show how the horde playerbase reacted to the story. The same can be done for Alliance with Tyrande vs Anduin for Alliance only players.

Then you would know how people feel about Horde and Alliance as they are now. But then again that will never happen since the reality would be shocking imo.


(Leíá) #5

It was as clear as day Sylvanas wasn’t lasting as Warchief, this expansion…I don’t know why this has caused everybody to freak out. I saw it from a mile wide.


(Zarao) #6

Because people held on to the notion that Blizzard wouldn’t be as stupid as drag on another Garrosh that would inevitably cause a whole set of problems that would only be fixed by forced writer intervention, retcons, etc.
And not only with the Horde.


(Leíá) #7

But with all due respect, the Forsaken were always out for their own gains. This was hinted at way back in Vanilla.

Even Night Elf Sylvanas was out for her own.
Poisoning the Dwarf was, as the Apothecary said “All part of the Dark Lady’s plan on what she wants to unleash on the world.”

Yes, even I, the beautiful Leia, plays a Forsaken on Classic.


(Zarao) #8

Yes. But the way Blizzard forced the situation to the point they had to rethink their entire existence as a playable race through some external mean (Calia), and twisted their traits to the point it was narratively imperative to go for an overhaul that removed who in essence represented them most (Sylvanas), is what in essence we’d call a bad way of handling a story. Specially one subject to gaming contingencies such as this one.

I mean, they literally had to go for retcons and tweaks in order for it to work. They had to make several races and characters across both factions, out of place and acting OOC to have something resembling a story.

And that’s just the tip of the iceberg for BfA.
Because bias aside, the current state of the Story is hardly Sylvanas character fault alone.
In fact, I exposed in another post who could be the real culprit and why. My opinion of course, but not an unfounded one I think.


(Leíá) #9

Well you lot wanted her as Warchief.

And here we see the problem with only having one character who has represented the race.
It’s always been the Forsaken’s problem - where they should have developed more characters instead of just two, they chose not to do this.

Humans are going through the same problem now, with only bringing lore for Anduin, Jaina and the occasional Mathias.


(Araphant) #10

This is pretty much common for WOW, unfortunately. Most, if not all races suffer from this.


(Leíá) #11

But not as bigger problem for many as it is for Humans and Forsaken.

We’re seeing those negative issues on why only developing a few characters for a certain race is not a good movement.
Take the Nightborne - they have Thalyssra, along with Valtrois, Oculeth, Silgryn, Ly’leth and Victorie. If anything was happen to Thalyssra, we’d have options which are positive outlooks for the race, moving forward.

Humans and Forsaken don’t have this, because Blizzard have only developed a few of them, to be nigh perfect, but this is off-putting for many.


(Zarao) #12

Doubtful.
Do not confuse the willingness and excitement to have her character grow into the Warchief role, with this.

The premise to have her being such, was heavily tied to her behaving accordingly to what she had been prior. Subtle. And cautious.
She could still be evil, but either (a) not be as detrimental for the Horde and apparent about it or (b) have her character be naturally moderated by circumstances and turn for the better by growing more conciliatory with other faction segments other than her own.

Nobody, or very very few, wanted a blatant villain that made deals with Old Gods, created dystopian 1984 rules and whatnot, least of all as head of the faction.

Also…”you lot”? What makes you think I wanted her as Warchief over Voljin?:joy:

There are plenty of characters. Sylvanas was simply the one that represented them the most.

By the way, same happens with plenty other races. That doesn’t necessarily translate into something negative.
Velen, Malfurion, Tyrande, Anduin, Baine,…
When Voljin was gone, how long did it take Blizzard to create a substitute? How many relevant characters can you name for the Worgen faction that are par on Genn regarding relevance?
Void elves? Dark Iron?


(Leíá) #13

And that is the problem.

Two characters for a whole race, who then take up leading an entire faction - the consequences were going to happen.

Along with Lightforged as well as Ishanah.

Along with Maiev, Shandris, Jarod and Mordent.

I said that Humans are in this point as well. You haven’t read my post.

They weren’t around since Day 1 of WoW

Blizzard had enough time to get the race in question sorted. They didn’t. The race has suffered.

Look, if you only wanted Sylvanas to be the one to truly represent them, that’s fine, but don’t start crying wolf to me, when this sort of stuff, what we’re facing now, happens. I told you all to be wary of this, but I wasn’t listened to and again; it was quite clear she wasn’t going to be Warchief after BfA. That was clear - so stop freaking out about this fact that the majority of us all saw coming.

If your not happy, simply give up on the story or quit.


(Zarao) #14

Belmont, Faranell, Voss,…
The Forsaken have plenty of other characters.
The examples you named after the leaders I mentioned, are still hardly as representative and relevant as said characters.

Where Anduin goes, Stormwind follows. Same for Velen. Same for Malfurion. Same for Baine.

By trashing Sylvanas, the effect topples every other character that feeds on traits she represents.
Much like denouncing Velen, or Malfurion, and tagging their traits as taboo, would irrevocably alienate those beneath them.

Because they are the representative ones.

So no, if your whole argument for the Forsaken race “deserving” on this outcome, is the fact that their leader happened to be the most representative of them all, then I’ll just add that it’s a rather faulty argument. Most races have it.
And with varying degrees of succes.

Rather not.


(Leíá) #15

The first two are almost unknown with Voss only coming to the story later on.

Well shut up moaning then. It was always going to happen.

Because your a Sylvanas fan who can’t take the fact that the crazy b!tch is no longer Warchief. That’s what this is.

End of conversation.


(Zarao) #16

The heads of the two most influential and relevant Forsaken armies? Yeah, they are known.
If you know the Forsaken lore and quested with them, that is.

Regarding the rest, and given it’s drifting into some rather unsavoury waters and tone, I’m leaving it.

Hope that those words don’t come biting you back eventually.

There is a saying in my country that goes:

“When they came for my neighbors and took them away, I laughed and didn’t intervene. That was not my problem.
When they came for me, there was noone left to aid me.”

(Roughly translated).


(Araphant) #17

That’s a poem from the thirties.

Martin Niemoller. “First they came.”

Edit: It actually counts like prose, huh.


(Leíá) #18

It’s a game mate.

Calm the f*ck down.


(Araphant) #19

Tis funny how Forsaken fans suddenly discovered such lofty sentiments only when their own butts are on the firing line. They weren’t so charitable during the “Saurfang fans go Alliance” and “Night elves, suck it up” campaigns.


(Leíá) #20

My whole issue with this is that we saw this coming.
Honestly, please tell you saw that Sylvanas wouldn’t be Warchief by the end of this expansion?

People are acting like it’s the worst thing ever yet, the majority of us saw this. It wasn’t even Sylvanas making bargains with Azshara…it was more to making deals with Helya and then attacking Tyrande’s City.

To me, this feels more like “fake outrage.”