that is because you do not give it the fair chance.
there is a reason i hate on blizzard all the time.
i used to love them once upon a time.
Context is king in this.
While i can understand disbanding after failing early, leaving super late like i have seen,in front of last boss of PF with still 2 min because " it is not going to be timed" is toxic regardless of how you put it.
You dont want to " bend" for 3 minutes and so, basically make other 4 people completely waste 40 min just because.
Totally nosensical and quite retarded logic honestly.
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the irony is my negativity is aimed positively…
if you read between the lines on everything im saying over the years…
it is all hinting for them to improve and get better because it’s what the players want.
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How is it toxic to have more fun with higher gear on higher keylevels? We are just talking about fun.
I think both of your frustrations come from the same outlook in life. Both of you in this thread have expressed a lack of willingness to understand the other side of the debate.
Both of your perspectives are:
‘If your values do not align with ours, you are toxic and a terrible person. Both in the game and out’
That’s potentially a very problematic viewpoint because with that, you’ll always be frustrated in group settings.
Ironically that is far more toxic than the opposing side of the debate, who is simply looking to have fun in a game how they want. By coming on to these forums and passing moral judgements on others with differing viewpoints you’re not only the more toxic ones here but could be argued you have initiated the toxic behaviour.
You have to learn how to behave in group settings, and understand that not everyone will share your goals or perspectives on either what is fun or what is the proper way of doing things. Without that, you’ll always end up with these frustrations.
All of your posts have come with a lack of willingness to understand the other perspective and little ad hominem attached with them. It’s a very childish ‘I am the centre of the universe’ type of attitude.
So why not just move the goal posts to a point where the gear is required to get the prize?
The fun comes from the dopamine hit you get from having a goal to work towards, and the goal in this case is the KSM mount. After that it’s just running a 15 key each week and hoping you get a better item in the vault.
A score isn’t enough for me to want to work towards. I’d be more inclined to push, if there was a reason to do it. But there’s not.
Tbh, I am glad there isn’t. Because it gives me the opportunity to play other parts of the game, such as World Content, Zereth Mortis has been so much fun.
But also, it means I can put the game down, and go outside and enjoy the summer without feeling like I have fallen behind. I can get on with my life and see my friends and my family. All the wonderful things in life, and I don’t need to worry about a little score that nobody is ever going to care about.
P.S. I have explained why it’s toxic in earlier posts. I prefer not to repeat myself in threads these days. Just read back if you’re interested to find out why it’s toxic. But Faz is a perfect example of it.
Well, the goal is nothing. We are not interested in a mount or pet or title. The goal is everytime trying to change a couple of details to improve a run.
Take in mind; this is done with friends, with analyzing, recording, etc. It is not about any meta group or something in mind. It is just the same 5 players on the classes they enjoy. This indeed means we can not copy the pro-world. But we are also not interested in that.
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But why? You have your mount? Why not just try a different part of the game? or go outside for a walk, or spend some time with friends?
There is literally no point to worrying about a couple of details. You’ve done the achievement, try something different.
When you’ve got players worrying about tiny details, and they go down to play with players who just want to play the game normally, is when the toxicity starts. The keys start getting left, tempers start flaring because new players don’t know these tiny pointless details. You might not be guilty of it yourself, but trust me it happens, ALOT!
You don’t need to be that much better than other people. Just take it easy.
funny enough, i understand all sides …
doesn’t make it anymore likely i would agree with your stance… i always come into a conversation on these forums with a open mind and i look at things from the party in questions viewpoint equally.
i always vouch for my own gut instinct on what is the correct way to act in the end though, and if that does not match in value with yours, then there is a conflict which i do try to explain … often harshly but honestly.
much to the hate of people regularly why do you think so many people look at me in a bad way … when what i do say is actually good.
Why? Because it is fun to work together with friends on something. It is really a lot of fun.
We have the mount but you can get it from me, i am not interested. We are also enjoying other parts of the game. And my walk outside i got every saturday and sunday for a couple of hours. Thank you very much for your concern 
There is no point to you, but actually coordinating a lot of stuff among friends on voice is actually really cool when it pays off.
Sure, we are also enjoying other things in life
No worries. We just have fun with randoms too in communities. On some lower keys. But we are very friendly.
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-runs/season-sl-3/5790097-15-plaguefall
Like yesterday. 5 wipes i think. But we all laughed it away. Unfortunately we didnt had anyone with a batteres 
And a ret pala and fire mage. Non meta. But who cares about meta.
Fun was also the fearing of the 2 paladins of the big slimes. They pathed right into the boss after turn evil 
the moral to this dilemma is the higher in the mythic+ scene you push the more sweaty and dark it is.
Its a different mindset i like to hang in 15s while pugging and go higher with friends if I feel like it.
I like the fact that i can feel the keys getting easier and thus being more relaxed, others like costant challenges in the key as a whole.
My challenge is maximizing my dps as a heal, thats about it.
It’s not an unwillingness to understand the other sides point of view. I completely understand that.
I just see that the variety of skill levels in this game has become so vast that when players of opposite ends of the spectrum meet, it becomes and incredibly hostile situation. And unfortunately, you’re falling on the side of the fence that seems to be less “accepting” of other peoples goals. Especially when you are boasting that you’ll happily leave someones key if it doesn’t look like it will be timed.
But why do you need to do that above the goal posts? I personally do the exact same thing you do, but I start at the lower keys and work upto +15. Then I move onto a new character.
It’s not something that you can have enough of.
So you’re one player that treats people well. But the same can’t be said about Faz here who will happily deplete someones key because he’s not going to get his timed score.
Real life should always come first… was in the position myself once where i didn’t have that in the right order…
and it messed me up for many years… took a lot of work to correct it in the end.
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Who is setting a goal post? I don’t see any.
The higher you get the less you get interested in score. You know you are going to deplete by far most of your keys since it is that hard.
Honestly, I never have any desire to go higher than +15. I don’t see a point.
It’s fun because when you get fully geared, you start over powering the dungeon. Like in the old days, when you went back to doing a dungeon after you have completed a raid and you feel that bit stronger.
It’s nice to have an end point.
+15 KSM mount.
Yes that is a mount. There is also a mount for getting 700 mounts or something. Does that players stop collecting more mounts? Achievements are not the end.
You seem to care way too much about achievements and rewards. We actually enjoy playing the content we are playing. We don’t give a damn about the mount.
And end point means our fun is stopping. That means unsub. Not sure that is good design.
There was a time where running dungeons was about getting the reward at the end (or at each boss), to make you more powerful so you can progress onto the next level or next boss.
It felt good to be rewarded like that. It was a reason to go into dungeons, and was a reason to want to progress through the content and live through the stories the game had to tell.
But now, there are a group of players who don’t care about the rewards, and only care about a pointless number getting higher and higher.
This has led to the game feeling less rewarding, less story content being put into the game, and less enjoyable for a huge number of players.
All because people like you only care about an small number going up and up and up. This may not affect YOUR gameplay, but it affects other peoples.
not really, it gives you the opportunity to take things slower, and takes a lot of the pressure off. Also gives people the chance to enjoy other parts of the game.
Remember World of Warcraft is a big game. Currently you get a lot of player who just want to M+ or just want to Raid or just want to PVP, and as soon as they have to do something else, they cry about it, and each time blizzard reacts to that crying the game gets a little bit worse each time.
Players should be encouraged to play the game as a whole, not just one little part of it.
You are absolutely correct on both counts. Yes, that community is very toxic, and yes - it is Blizzard’s fault.
There is a huge punishment for failure and that failure takes a while to realise - and the punishment is only actually for the person who has the key.
It’s the perfect cocktail for brewing hatred.
I’ve suggested in the past, and will now do so again, to change the system so that it unlocks similar to how Torghast unlocks, and if you fail the timer well… you just don’t get a higher level unlocked and that’s pretty much it.
Why all the random keystone stuff?
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