Alternative lore discussion: Horde ceases to exist and the Troll empire takes his place

[Aster-kul-tiras (Aster)]

Hello Everyone.

I wanted to discuss with you a alternative lore idea.
This is just to change a bit the current discussions, like: X character did nothing wrong.

What if the current Horde would cease to exist, because it just makes no sense.

Thrall built it under the ideas of a band of refugees who seek to prosper in a world that came to hate them.

But that is gone, first with Cataclism and now with BfA.
The ideals that were the foundation of the current Horde are reduced to ashes, in my opinion.

What if the Alliance would win this round and Ogrimar would be taken down.
The Horde cease to exist.

A new faction would replace it, with new ideals.
Not peace ideals but war ideals, like Azeroth is too small for the Alliance and the new faction.

Like the Troll empire reborned.
From what I gathered, Trolls unlike Orcs are natives of Azeroth.
They have claims, that clash with the Alliance.

It is said that all land is Troll land.
That would be ideal for players who like never ending conflicts novels.
Under this new banner, peace would be literally impossible to exist.

If we look to the Horde roster the only race capable to gather enough resources to challenge the Alliance is the Trolls.

Darkspears along side the Zandalari could gather the remaining Troll tribes on Azeroth and build a mighty new faction.
Amani, Gurubashi and many others could join the ranks.

Orcs, Tauren, Forsaken, Blood Elfs, Goblins, Nightborne, Highmountain Tauren would be part as Allies.

The new faction would sort issues like the Blood Elfs and Amani dispute and unite them under the new faction.

I know this was attempted by Zul in Cataclysm and MoP, but he only counted with Trolls.

A new faction led by the Zandalari in which all the Horde races are banded together, would probably have a different impact.

We currently have the basis since the Zandalari are already part of the Horde and since they are probably more powerful than any other race inside the Horde for example:

• They haven’t lost their capital city, like the Forsaken.
• They haven’t sustained casualties over a extended period of time like the Orcs.
• They didn’t have 90 per cent of their race wiped out like the Blood Elfs.
• They still hold a large fleet and can expand unlike the Tauren.
• They still have their home island unlike the Goblins.

This are just some random thoughts gathered in a day’s work.

What’s your opinion ?

Cheers.

[Ussrainblood-doomhammer (Ussrainblood)]

Beep * All land is Humans land and in that scenario, we would make short work again of those slimy no brain, the troll a threat ah ah ah ah perhaps for the murocs and even that’s still to see.

[Ussrainblood-doomhammer (Ussrainblood)]

You would tell me the orcs ok now that’s a serious threat , the taurens maybe too but the rest lol !

[Araphant-defias-brotherhood (Araphant)]

I actually find this idea fascinating. It occurred to me too!

Historically, the great Empires often assimilated entire nations into their structures, which was not so difficult in the middle ages (and before), because faith was more important then nationality. Byzantium stands like a decent example of such an empire.

I believe this would be fascinating for story-telling, and I would be all up for it, but since I gave up on my red tabard ages ago, I don’t get to vote.

The concept has merit, most certainly.

[Aster-kul-tiras (Aster)]

Don’t worry.
All opinions are welcome, this isn’t a Horde discussion only.

You said it was a great idea, Ussrainblood seems to disagree.

Either way thanks for the replies.

Cheers.

[Araphant-defias-brotherhood (Araphant)]

Well, Ussrainblood is more fit for the Murloc Empire. Although they are certainly more eloquent.

[Aeula-argent-dawn (Aeula)]

@Aster-kul-tiras

Amani

No. I’d sooner join an old god faction than a faction with those mossy bastards on it.

Quel’thalas has been in conflict with them for THOUSANDS of years. They should never even consider allying with the Amani and indeed, I would support sabotaging any attempts the Horde or this theoretical Zandalari ‘empire’ makes to have those curs join them.

The only way I’d accept the Amani tribe joining the Horde is if they’re slaves.

[Zolwamba-silvermoon]

This entire thread is like a wet dream for me. I don’t even know where to start.

twitches uncontrollably

[Zolwamba-silvermoon]

Unrelated to this topic but Ara I feel like you would be interested in this from your post - if you have Sky tv check out the series Hidden Underworlds.

To balance it out with an on-topic comment; although I don’t think this idea would ever happen, I would totally support it. We kind of have it now to an -extent- in the sense that the Z Empire isn’t actually in the Horde, they are just friends the Horde can ask for help, but essentially still stand on their own. I think that’s as close as we’ll get.

But damn, in an ideal world we’d stand alone from a game mechanic point of view too, all Troll cities and settlements would be our faction cities, playable Dire Troll tanks… it would be glorious. GLORIOUS.

[Araphant-defias-brotherhood (Araphant)]

@Zolwamba-silvermoon

Unrelated to this topic but Ara I feel like you would be interested in this from your post - if you have Sky tv check out the series Hidden Underworlds.

I am totally checking it out, thanks mate.

[Zolwamba-silvermoon]

Ah correction it’s called ‘Cities of the Underworld’. Enjoy.

[Daltor-aggramar (Daltor)]

@Bluntt-veknilash

because as you said, the whole globe is Troll land.

“Just because you mark something, doesn’t make it yours.”
Worgen Proverb -

Thing the trolls could use that proverb. Doesn’t matter how much you claim it’s yours, if you leave it abandoned and desolate, you can’t complain when someone takes it from you and actually uses it.

[Zolwamba-silvermoon]

Although you are absolutely right, that’s not how Trolls work. What’s theirs is theirs, even if it isn’t anymore for legit reasons.

[Haiete-wildhammer (Haiete)]

I think an idea like this was proposed a month ago or so on the forums, and it was well-received.

I like that non-Troll races will be ‘part’ of the empire as allies, so they retain some independence, but I wonder if every race fits well in this concept.

I don’t know whether the Blood Elves would eagerly become allies with the Troll tribes, since the Trolls covet lands that the Blood Elves have claimed. If the Horde falls, I think that the Blood Elves would rather go their own way.

The Tauren wouldn’t be interested in supporting a Troll empire as well. While there are similarities between both races, the Tauren do not desire an enormous empire, and wouldn’t actively support the Trolls in creating one. I believe that the Tauren would rather go their own way as well

Both these points are irrelevant if the Tauren and Blood Elves are in danger and will not be able to defend themselves if they wouldn’t get the help of the Trolls. That will give them the right motivation to become allies of this empire.

I’m pretty sure there are other races that are in this position, but I think this should give a general idea of things that we need to take into account.

[Zakkaru-burning-legion (Zakkaru)]

You know what is the best thing about it? That this idea isn’t even proposed from troll fans/ players.

But I’m totally with you on how much this concept is enticing. I even have Ode to troll empire! (since I’m in romantic mood)

https://youtu.be/7PoIisbJ7HI

[Zakkaru-burning-legion (Zakkaru)]

I’m sorry what exactly troll abandoned so the other races felt justified into pressing into their territories? Name one example.

[Wimbert-die-aldor]

I proposed something similar a while back, although the scenario was more the Horde falling apart than losing militarily:

Idle thought: Integrating the Horde into the Zandalari empire. (spoilers included)

As the lore talk confirmed once again yesterday, BfA is another addon about the same identity crisis that led to SoO. Blizzard is convinced that the underlying issues haven’t been solved in the slightest, and that the Horde needs to face them openly again, and find a common perspective to move forward. The honor vs “pragmatism” issue needs to be resolved, we are told. At the same time we can see an interesting thing on the PTR data. The Zandalari seem to join the Horde as equal partners, and no…

So… I obviously am all for it. Especially since I think the Zandalari are a nice middle ground between the opposite poles of the Horde.

I’m not into destroying cities, though, and would hope OG would be left standing anyway.

[Zudai-chamber-of-aspects]

Then I assume under this proverb you agree that Nobody has any right to anything and that taking what you want is fine because it does’t belong to anyone…?

Good to know that the Horde where fully justified in trying to take Gillnaus then.

On topic

I think it’s a cool idea, thought I doubt the members of the Horde would go for it without some concessions, such as “yes we are part of your empire but I rule my people and you have to take my opinion or rejection into consideration.”

[Däkär-silvermoon (Däkär)]

@Ussrainblood-doomhammer

Beep * All land is Humans land

Silly human, Azeroth’s clay belong to it’s original denizens - the elementals.

All land is elemental land.

[Wimbert-die-aldor]

To elaborate a bit: I think what the Zandalari empire could mean would really be an end to the Horde identity crisis. The Zandalari have a very strong of identity, which does include very dark elements as well as their own brand of nobility. They can appreciate the ruthless Forsaken, while keeping them in check, and they can appreciate even the most peace-loving of the Tauren, while not feeling bound by their inaction. And their opposition to the Alliance which killed Rastakhan and always treated the native troll populations as little more than vermin would come very naturally.

Apart from that it would solve the Horde’s “mud hut problem”. The factions are usually only represented by one set of aesthetics in any given situation. Too much variety would mean too much work for Blizzard. For most of the time it was human style for the Alliance and orcish style for the Horde. And that feels quite wrong for any of their higher civilizations, like the two elf peoples, the goblins and the Forsaken. But in Forsaken Frankenstein-gothic environments or elven fairy castles, the Kalimdor Horde would feel just as out of place. The zandalari style on the other hand, seems to fit for most of the Horde. It has loads of primitive, tribal elements, while also presenting signs of higher civilization everywhere. An elf can move there without feeling the constant need to wash themselves, while the orc can tolerate the place without the overwhelming urge to smash it all to bits.

And I do think both of these things are extremely important. The talk about the “Kalimdor Horde” vs. the “eastern Horde” goes back at least to BC, and the divide has been quite jarring for many. The aesthetics may even be more important here than the lore, because you are confronted with them so often. I’m not a Horde player, but I genuinely believe that the faction would instantly feel more unified, if they were united by the zandalari’s vision.

That said… I’m not sure if there is a good story anywhere that could lead to that point. The Horde losing the war would be humiliating for many of its players. The Horde breaking up due to infighting, just to be picked up by the visionary Talanji would devalue whatever players think the Horde stood for before. And everyone just deciding to follow Talanji to solve their internal conflicts would be horribly forced.

At this point I’ll happily take a forced story, though, if it leads to an acceptable new starting point for new addons.
Let’s imagine Saurfang’s resistance against Sylvanas heating up… and Sylvanas ordering the other leaders to act against Saurfang, forcing them to choose sides. I would imagine the Horde leaders wouldn’t be really happy with that. And I could just imagine Rokhan deciding to kneel before Talanji and vow to follow her lead, inspiring others to do the same. Or the old schemer Lorte with his new Nightbourne pals doing it. They could instantly create a “Horde” faction that was stronger than anything Sylvanas or Saurfang could offer, just by accepting Talanji as their leader. And it could easily force Sylvanas and Saurfang into a “join or perish”-situation. I’m not totally convinced by the scenario, but I do think there could be potential for something, if they actually decide to include some politicing, instead of just force and rebellion.