You just need to look at representation to answer that.
So? There are in total 36 different specs. You can’t get all those in 1 group of 20. Plenty of specs that are considered even worse than Havoc apparently.
It’s fine for a spec to be worse than Havoc if they have an alternative. Havoc doesn’t. DH has 2 specs, 1 is subpar and the other is absolute garbage. ( vengeance )
At least one should be very good.
My general opinion:
Havoc
PVE - Very stronk - Very good for Mythic+ and good for Raiding
PVP - Ok - Struggles from having to pick either a slow or a stun, but still OK
Vengeance
PVE - Meh - I played a lot of Vengeance in legion and basically stopped playing it for BFA as I felt like paper. I’d personally consider them the worst Raid tank and not that great at higher keys for mythic+.
PVP - Amazing - Best flag carriers and good at general disruption
I personally think Havoc is in a pretty good place for both, could do with some minor adjustments, but generally good.
Vengeance I feel needs a bit more attention.
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I disagree with ‘good’. Guilds are using ONE, for debuff. and that’s it. by that logic Paladin was a good raiding class in Vanilla, because every guild wanted one. But you only want it for that specific thing, everything else is meaningless and if a Balance Druid had the debuff you’d see 0 DHs.
We’re the least represented melee class in the top 200 for both 2v2 and 3v3, and we had far better numbers last season so you can’t blame popularity. We’re really bad right now.
And Vengeance FC was nerfed p sure.
More forgiving than Ranged? What? Ranged have raided easymode since the dawn of mankind. They take less damage and have fewer mechanics to deal with.
Yes because ranged are busted.
Good, because that’d be crazy. We’re behind every ranged spec on DPS.
aight so i think i found your problem with DH
i just think you’re not very good at it. DH isn’t in a bad spot right now, objectively. idk why you think it is.
You killed 1 Mythic boss in half a year. You’re not qualified to make that assessment. You’re not even AOTC.
A class played by 8% of all players with a 2% representation in the top 200 in PvP is not objectively good.
you think blur is a bad defensive. if you think blur is bad idk man lmao
It’s alright, but nothing special. Those classes are ranged, take less damage cause ranged while also having equally good defensives.
Sooo… a class specialization that is in the upper half of the DPS statistics for the raid (on all difficulties including mythic), provides a unique debuff that makes it mandatory for every raid group, has great great utility to evade mechanics, is by far the most represent spec in M+ (like only 5 grps out of the top 100 don’t have a DH ), has great utility for M+, insane AoE dmg and good ST dmg is somehow “bad” nowdays?? Like what’s going on?
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Behind all ranged.
That’s a bad thing. You shouldn’t want the class for only 1 thing. If not for it you’d get a boomkin instead. That’s the whole problem. No one debates bringing in 2 DHs. With ranged classes that happens.
What? Havoc has poor ST damage.
We have 4 very dh’s In our guild. My last guild had 3 dh’s. These dh’s were\are top dps.
I compare myself to our dh’s regularly and the tuning for dh is much better than sin for Single Target dps.
They benefit more from everything plus you can still do crazy aoe even with a ST setup. Sin rogues have to choose between aoe or st we cannot have both.
I checked simulationcraft and bloodmallet and it saddens me that max geared dh’s have around 1k more dps than max geared sin does.
Dh’s have no problem getting into high mythic content while we wait for for specific mythic’s that specifically need rogues.
The mobility and qol spells\abilities are the best for any content ( old and new )
The only reason that’s keeping me ( and quite a few more ) from rolling the op dh class is the Elf race lock.
You seem to have default mindset regarding whatever anyone tells you on how good dh’s are and that is 1 guild doesn’t use 2 demon hunter’s in their raid while stating that they have 2 assassins in their guild.
I could make the same argument that why are there 2 sins and no sub or outlaw.
Try rerolling to an Assassin ( or whatever you want ) if you are unhappy with your class. I rerolled from my beloved Fury war and Frost dk because they are not as good as rogue in mythic plus or raids.
And trust me no matter how much I love my rogue I am just waiting for an Orc dh announcement from blizzard.
TLDR; DH is the best pve class in the game now.
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You mean like all melee? Still doesn’t change the fact it’s in the upper half of the dps statistics. Period.
You don’t, that’s just an added bonus.
even less are debating bringing in 2 warriors, 2 DKs, 2 Mages, 2 Paladins, 2 Monks, 2 Shamans if one of them is not restoration… you can go on with this forever…
DPS statistics on Grong disagree with you…
And again, Havoc is by far the most represent spec in M+ and has amazing burst AoE dmg.
Havoc is in a very good spot right now. Your problem is you only want to play fotm classes and the moment something is not “the best at everything” it’s bad for you. Well tough luck for you I guess, switch to another class that you find worthy. And that mentality of yours that if X guild only brings 1 of Y means Y is bad will bring you no fortune.
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Which is a problem, yes.
Yes you do, or high end guilds would use more than one. That’s the whole point.
All those classes have a viable tank/healer spec for High end raiding. DH does not.
Woah you must be a great raider man, Method clearly needs to learn from you considering they used 1 DH for most of their world first run.
You’re talking out of your Uranus.
Far from it, and it’s no surprise you say such nonsense when I look at your PVE prog.
How come all of you 1 / 9 Mythic non-AOTC raiders are coming in here to tell me what balance is like? I’m talking about endgame here, Mythic raiding, not what your rank 5000 guild is doing.
Lolwhat?
Those guilds min max. If they don’t bring X class it’s because it’s inferior to the others.
The way you express yourself and answer to others tells me you are an angry teenager that’s venting his other issues into the forums.
Many of us are better players than what their guilds are but stick with them because of the social value.
Lastly before you criticize someone else I see your not 9/9 mythic either.
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No, I just don’t have time for bad players who think they know squat about the endgame.
And if DHs are beating you on the meters you’re doing it wrong.
ht tps://i.gyazo.co m/45a9b6cb01bece81ab340a6e77c141bd.png
Ssh that’s because he plays a sucky class…
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Maybe, just maybe guilds like method take classes based on their strengths when min/maxing especially during world 1st race. They only took BM hunter (Gingi) for jaina for the ‘turtle and interrupt’ part + the fact he’s actually insane on the class.
Even though Havoc has decent ST damage its outshined by other classes. Cant be the king of AOE and the king of ST at the same time.
Not to mention its one of, if not the best melee dps spec for M+ due to the insane AOE damage.
Dafuq?? What does it matter how many of a certain class do high end guilds bring?? It literally means nothing about a class/spec viability? They are min-maxing to the maximum possible degree which is literally useless and impractical for 99.99% of the player base. Is DH viable in PvE? Absolutely YES! Among the best even!
What? Still doesn’t change the fact you dont need more than 1 of them…
You are literally proving yourself wrong and us right…
According to your logic every class should be the best and beat the others on ST DPS 
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