Are we still denying that World of Warcraft is dying?

I don’t know ANYTHING about Diablo, but I looked Greater Rifts up.

All three are timed, yes, but:

CM: one difficulty
GR: potentially infinite difficulties
M+: potentially infinite difficulties

CM: no progression. you can try doing it faster, but it’s the same instance
GR: potentially infinite progression, mediated by keystones
M+: potentially infinite progression, mediated by keystones

CM: rewarded no gear, just cosmetics
GR: reward gear up to the highest in the game
M+: reward gear up to the highest in the game

Are these comparisons correct?

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Which 2 look similar ?

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Rick James said coccaine is a hell of a drugg, id say wow is.

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Well, if you look at the lowest common denominator then sure the comparison you make isn’t too far off, there are similarities but if you look at rules and the experience they are very different.

GR scale with the amount of people in the party, not just levels.

GR requires each player to have a keystone to participate.

GR keystones are not unique, you can have multiple keystones.

GR difficulty levels are unlocked by completing them in time which is 15 min and then you can actually select whatever level you want and because of that you can easily restart them as opposed to say M+ where if someone leaves you’re kinda doomed.

GR maps are generated randomly, including mobs.

GR allows you to shift stats through Paragon but similar to M+ it doesn’t allow you to change gear.

GR push you to beat the timer as the legendaries gems can only be upgraded exclusively by that content and the higher the key you actually get better chances to get primal ancients which similar to the idea of WF/TF in WoW.

You wrote that the reward for M+ you get the highest gear in game but this isn’t true, for 10+ you get 430 by the end of the dungeon and 440 for season 3 in the weekly chest, that’s not the highest and it’s the same for people who are doing 20 keys, sadly for them.

I can probably go on with the differences but all in all, it’s like saying that both Diablo and WoW have classes, gear, talents and so on but everything from the design in terms of rules and experience is very different.

I guess that at the end if some people really want something to look exactly the same they will ignore all the differences and only look at the similarities.

p.s. In my opinion D3 GR is more rewarding than M+ but I completely acknowledge that they are different games so I don’t tend to compare experiences and enjoy them both.

I don’t really care whether designers share ideas or that they take inspiration from other games the question that should be asked is whether players are enjoying it.

Grainne, this is quite literally an instance of people burying their heads in the sand and telling you black is white. Of course you are right, it only takes a modicum of common sense to see that the mythic plus system is an adaptation of greater rifts to wow dungeons. But they will keep up the absurdity, their position is untennable otherwise, and trying to back things in a corner is their only way of arguing this point further. Personally, I don’t even see why they feel the need to do so… it’s not like anyone is actually going to come up and say “you are right, they are nothing like greater rifts, I used to dislike them before you said this but now I think they are great”, and besides it’s a legitimate thing for a company to borrow elements from their other games, regardless if x or y might not like it. But point is you are wasting your time arguing this once it got to this point. It’s like arguing with a climate change denier - won’t get anywhere.

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This is the first time I’ve ever heard anyone say that kings rest is a “fine” dungeon.

I mean for one alliance m+ is dead but I’ve been playing my alliance paladin a bit during 3-7 am and there were still some groups available so I’d guess it’s your itemlevel?

There is a massive difference between alliance and horde populations, too. I haven’t personally tried to PuG M+ in the middle of the night on Alliance side myself, but the problem is noticeable everywhere, so it would surprise me if it wasn’t the case for M+ in the middle of the night, too.

I’ve recently posted this. I think I should put it into my sticky notes, I post it so often. A lot of people just don’t understand what an MMO or RPG is, let alone an MMORPG. Here we go:

An MMORPG consists of two parts: MMO - Massively Multiplayer Online, and RPG - RolePlaying Game.

The MMO part stipulates that you should, as often as possible, be in a massive world with thousands of people around you, which in turn implies that the map should be absolutely colossal so as to not overfill it and lag the server.

The RPG implies that you should select a role and build a character, identify yourself with that character and take actions as that character. The levelling up and the gear is that “build a character” part.

Good MMORPG’s cross these over, using the RPG aspects to give everyone a unique signature that can be recognised by other players in the MMO consistently and repeatedly, then turning that consistent MMO community around and using it to reinforce the player’s immersion by having other players getting to know their character and repeatedly refer to the player as his/her character, thus making it easier to ground your perspective in your character, causing you to roleplay even more without even realising.

This creates a beautiful circular reinforcement mechanism that can almost entirely overtake you. It becomes another life in another world. A chance to reset and make new friendships and relationships. These relationships, in turn, make the game unreasonably sticky. You just can’t put it down . And it’s the best kind of addiction ever; you literally become addicted to being social and friendly.

There are precious few people in the world who understand what an MMORPG is and how to design it. Indeed, you will find that a lot of the same people worked on Everquest and World of Warcraft, as did the same work on Dark Age of Camelot and The Elder Scrolls Online, and then there’s Square, the makers of Final Fantasy. And that’s… basically it. Everyone else are failing.

The best way to truly understand the genre is to listen to some of these people, but most of them won’t give the secret up. World of Warcraft, however, has recently become a notable exception to this. Mark Kern, John Staats, Allan Adham, and Kevin Jordan. Find some clips from those guys.

The problem that we’ve got, is somehow some of this information got lost along the way. World of Warcraft is still a good game in many ways, but as an MMORPG, it is a miserable failure.

More specifically to your sub-points: Arenas, BG’s, M+, etc. are distinctly not MMO features. They feature queue systems, and causes your character to appear and disappear to other players at random.

The open world uses a lot of dynamic sharding tech (aka CRZ) which means that you never encounter the same person twice in the open world. This causes a further breakdown of the MMO community. Most game modes now also scale or modify your gear, or they scale themselves to fit your gear, thus annihilating gear progression other than “numbers get bigger whee”, and since nobody recognises you because of the MMO part breaking down, you are not encourages to start identifying with your character, because nobody refers to your character as really you, and the RPG aspects go down with it.

WoW is no longer an MMORPG.

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I agree and as much as I love the competitive scene of WoW I think this is part of the reason for it but maybe they can do a much better job at it, make the RP realm even more special by bringing back some of the RPG elements to it and keep the normal realms as they are for people that like it, if it’s even possible at this point.

Yeah alliance m+ is way less populated than horde from my experience but there are still groups even in the middle of the night during a work day.

Consider that PvP has not changed at all since WoD, only the systems around it, and this is an invalid point, because what you are really saying is that the

made the PvP in WoD seem better. However, one region of PvP where BfA has absolutely steamrolled WoD is warmode, which has resulted in actual world PvP, and since it was able to actually make me want to PvP, whereas all WoD encouraged me to do was honour farm PvE objectives in Ashran in tmog, then BfA has singularly improved PvP imo.

These are the same point, and it’s simply not true. Once you left Shadowmoon Valley/Frostfire Ridge, the story immediately lost direction and any sense of urgency, and it only got worse as you delved deeper. The only zone that had anything interesting in it was Spires of Arak, and it was because the Arakkoa were completely separate from the Iron Horde storyline. But it also has the infamous casting aside of Admiral Taylor, so even then, pretty bad.
The story in WoD was terrible from the very start, and I loathed levelling through those zones after the initial run; the expansion made me detest raising up alts and has put me off them ever since.

I don’t know what you qualify as dull, but while the plot right now may lack in good writing, it’s by no means dull. Nobody quite knows what’s happening next and everyone is constantly theorising about it and arguing about. The zones, at least on the Alliance part, feel very connected throughout their questlines, and seem like they’re actually going somewhere unlike WoD’s.

Simplicity is not bad. This is not inherently a bad thing, and asking for complexity just for the sake of it is dumb. The classes are fine.

WoD’s zones at Endgame were EXACTLY that. Do your Apexis daily then come back tomorrow. The only difference is that in WoD, the only meaningful thing you were working towards was the Legendary Ring. Then you had absolutely zero reason to ever go out into the zones ever again. As a result, they were dead.

Level and item level scaling are completely harmless, and while the HoA isn’t the best system, at least unlike Artifacts it doesn’t completely decimate Alts, and provides a continuous reason to go out into the world, something WoD lacked completely.

BfA isn’t the best expansion, but it’s ludicrous to pretend it comes anywhere near the pitiful lows of WoD, which never had a .1 patch and stopped at .2. The game isn’t bleeding subs by the day like it was then, and it’s gone some way to revitalise the world in various ways. WoD tried nothing with itself and provided nothing for anyone but an AFK farm in the Garrison, with most of its meaningful content gutted out before release.
BfA may have taken some risks, made some changes you don’t like, but it’s still miles above WoD.

By your definition , many games aren’t really mmorpg , also with your definition classic wouldn’t be a mmo either.

At which point did it stop exactly ?

Correct! MMORPG is a genre of games - not every game is an MMORPG.

At which point exactly is purple more blueish than redish in your subjective opinion?

Stupid question. All I can say it’s definitely not an MMORPG now.

By your definition. :slight_smile:

Post a better one.

Nice cop-out btw.

“Hurr durr I can’t argue the point so I guess I’ll just say that’s like your opinion man”

Like, yeah - of course it’s my opinion. There is nothing objective about games classification - there’s just a consensus we’ve all more-or-less agreed on, and MMORPG’s are definitely characterised by massive online worlds with thousands of players roleplaying characters within it. WoW doesn’t do that anymore.

I don’t mind to argue with you after work :slight_smile: now my time is limited.

That’s completely fine but very different to snidely saying “by your definition” with no further context. Just reply when you’re ready for it :slight_smile:

WoD was better? WoD was the worst expansion by far, it was just bad and the game was like death. I like many abandoned ship at this point.

Lack of content killed WoD!