He is right tho.
Wrath success and core fun doesn’t came from LFD. Most of the players had fun without LFD for 364 days during Wrath.
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After reading the forums since the LFD announcement, one of the reasons people were hyped for LFD is because of TBCs current state (same goes for me).
They’re not thinking of strictly Wotlk and the effect of LFD in an ideal world (where automated systems like LFD would actually be detrimental). They’re for LFD because of their terrible experiences in TBC’s 2022 PvE player-base and the non-existent communication.
LFD would bring life back to group dungeon spamming from 1-70 and that alone, is hours and hours of content. That’s not even going into the simplicity of dungeon spamming at 80 to enjoy the pacing of Wotlk’s combat changes + dual spec to add more variety to combat. It’s the simplicity and ease-of-access that’s great about LFD in 2022, tied in with everything that is Wotlk.
And that was in 2009ish. This 2022, where knowledge about these games is highly available, and people are coming out of the nightmare that is 2022 TBC PvE. The original TBC/Wotlk games are not the same as the ones that are out today. Everything is different, and the first change (already) is that Wotlk will be released as 3.3.5. The whole experience is already completely different before the Classic version has even launched.
What was ‘successful and fun’ back then is not the same as now. TBC’s reason for success in 2007 is not the same as it is now (excluding the reason of nostalgia). LFD is beneficial considering the circumstances of 2022 TBC (‘circumstances’ being key in understanding the reason for pro-LFDers).
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yeah. It’s called - ppl don’t want to play with me, BUT I will force them to do it now 
This reply is so over-used. When people have no constructive arguments, they instantly say “no one wants to play with you”. The people that are saying this are most likely either in a large raiding guild that consistently puts groups together, or playing a meta class. Playing anything that’s even slightly below any meta-spec will result in a terrible PvE experience.
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Lfd isn’t in the spirit of classic, it automates an aspect of the game…by the way did i mention we are selling 70 boosts
It’s called: Everyone doesnt play in Firemaw
The fact that he’s playing a mage and is making that argument really tells you all you need to know, which is why I didn’t bother responding.
Just because you treat other players obstacles or you don’t want to interact with them does not mean EVERYONE does, which is kind of the point here.
Yes, it’s a massively multiplayer online game where you’re supposed to work with other people to achieve your goals not a single player game hence the argument.
No, you don’t know anything about me and labeling me, or calling me names, or trying to put me down because I don’t want to bow down to you doesn’t make me x, y, or z. This is a forum we’re here to share our opinions not get shouted at because entitled people can’t get what they want. If you want to have a discussion, then have one with me but throwing your toys out of the pram and trying to portray someone as a convenient stereotype to be dismissed because they disagree with you is a reflection of you, not me.
If you don’t understand why an automated system that decentivizes people from making an effort to interact with each other in an MMORPG (where that’s the whole point) or more over completely nullifies the need to in dungeon content I wouldn’t know how to better describe it to you. When you’re drawing from large pool of players (every EU) server and make the individual worth of the player, worthless, easily replaceable etc it does affect the social aspects of the game. This is probably one of the largest criticisms of the system.
Kneecapping the ENTIRE community in favour of smaller servers that Blizzard refused to merge for PR reasons isn’t a win to me, selfishness is wanting something at the cost of everything else or convenience for the sake of convenience.
Nope, if enough people screech I’m sure they’ll cave eventually but the entitlement of some posters who’ve never even posted in their lives is ridiculous.
I don’t entirely disagree I just don’t think people can grasp what starts to happen once you basically have an infinite number of players to draw from. On Earthshaker there’s still some semblance of the community that was left from the original Classic game and it shows, my general experience with LFD is retail where it’s fairly common for someone to get kicked right before the last boss to ensure people get the loot they want or the general nastiness you find there. People just run around in silence like robots they don’t even communicate with each other the majority of the time, it’s like you’re playing with bots except you aren’t. For better or worse even on servers this type of behaviour is usually absent. Using the most extreme example, even there you don’t see the type of behaviour you see in retail on a normal basis. Now on smaller servers like mine, it’s fairly common to see people LFG in the LFG channel until the late hours at night and most of the time it’s only hard to get in to a group if you’re severely undergeared. I don’t think there’s been a day yet where the daily heroic has rejected one of my alts.
I get what you’re saying, I do agree for the most part but I just don’t think it’s a big enough trade off. To me it’s like saying I have a disjointed leg so instead of putting in a brace to stop it from getting any worse I should cut it off. I’m sure you remember getting grouped with servers like Crushridge back in the day.
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I could not agree more. This is a typical session as dps :
DPS LFG (dungeoun)
DPS LFG (dungeoun)
DPS LFG (dungeoun)
.
.
.
.
2 hours later :
DPS LFG (dungeoun)
F* this and log off
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I was speaking to a friend who’s anti-LFD but I asked him about his circumstances and they are: small server + made his own social guild + doesn’t care about PvE (from a tryhard standpoint). Essentially, in a way, people are forcefully replicating the 2009 experience on their own smaller servers (compared to Firemaw). If Blizzard was able to do this but for all servers, then automated systems would indeed be detrimental. But it’s not realistic for the majority.
For the vast majority, LFD is beneficial given the current circumstances of 2022 TBC. And being kicked for loot competition isn’t something that TBC doesn’t experience either, it’s just in a different form. The amount of times I’ve been asked if I needed a certain piece of loot from a heroic is ridiculous, or the amount of HRs on BiS items (not even talking about raids).
So, is it better to maybe be kicked on last boss (which would still require 3/4 votes) + you can just requeue directly after? Or spend a vast amount of time looking for a group (as hard as it already is) + avoiding groups that HR/don’t invite you b/c you need the same loot as the leader. As well, LFD doesn’t take into account saved instances, so randomly spamming could lead you into a heroic you need more than once.
As for the bots running around on retail, TBC experiences exactly the same thing. There’s no difference on the larger servers. There is no communication, it doesn’t exist for most players.
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Things generally come after the need for said things arose - it’s not that people in WotLK didn’t feel the need of LFD until 3.3. The need was there long before LFD was introduced, or it wouldn’t have been introduced in the first place.
Personally I play tank and healer more than DPS, and I still don’t like the way LFG chat works now. Not because I want to “force people to play with me”, but because I don’t like the “first come first serve” nature of LFG chat, where the fastest whisper often wins and you have to feverishly watch the chat hoping to grab the spot before somebody else does. I for one would kill for a queue system, with or without teleporting (though I’m not against the latter, either).
I don’t think most people would reasonably claim there have been no negative impacts from LFD. I personally remember all too well TFW you have 3 people in your group from the same guild and they all roll need on that one ring drop so they can pass it to their buddy and screw you over. Or all the times when ppl just drop off Oculus or CoS, or when ppl randomly need on stuff just because. Yeah, it sucks when it happens. But I still ended up queuing because the ratio of items (emblems mainly) that I was getting this way still made it worth it - whereas these days there’s just not much of an incentive to do pug heroic dungeons in TBC unless you’re a main desperate for loot. And it’ll be even worse in WotLK since 10m gear becomes much, much better than it currently is.
No system is perfect. But, knowing both alternatives, I find LFD to be the lesser evil. Without LFD, what will happen is that most people will just do heroics less, or not at all. Sure, the individual quality of the runs you’ll find will be generally better, but still worse than the one of raids, which is the main reason why ultimately I don’t find it to be worth it.
WotLK dungeons aren’t Mythic+ retail dungeons. They’re just not worth running if they take as long of a time to get going and complete as a 10m Obsidian Sanctum or Trial of the Crusader, and the way we’d play said dungeons today - cleaving through stuff like a hot knife through butter - isn’t rly conducive to communication since ppl will use their fingers for hotkeys, not chat action. In the end, the only positive effect will be that, once you get a run going, people will be less inclined to leave or ninja. But, most of the time, you just won’t get anything going at all.
Then again, most WoW devs don’t even play the game nowadays, so I don’t rly expect them to have a pulse of the situation - they just get the edulcorated/romanticized picture of things they get from Youtube/Twitch influencers and whatnot.
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You have received a great honour.
But if I’m you, that means I’m a ultra hard core progressive raider with decades of experience at the absolute cutting edge of end game content and a comprehensive, encyclopedic knowledge of theorycrafting honed from untold years of pouring over stats and spreadsheets in efforts to get my parsing to the absolute pinnacle of perfection, with every single BIS item weighed and enumerated to the upteenth degree, and a spec/rotation that takes min/maxing to levels almost undreamed of by original developers.
And at the same time I am also the scrubbiest King Casual of Casualville in the Kingdom of Casual who would struggle to kill a Young Thistleboar without falling over dead and who struggles to understand why a leather jerkin has higher armor values than a cloth robe.
To that extent I/we are Schrödinger’s Forum Poster.
That’s debatable, but out of courtesy I won’t go deeper on this.
I would’ve thought this on myself when I was still playing on pservers, but after joining back into official Classic servers, the level of nolifing displayed by so many ppl put even mine to shame.
Though I suppose the upside of not employing all my brain for parsing means I have room for other stuff. Like specks of commonsense. Unlike some of the posters above.
I don’t think Firemaw should even be a thing honestly, not the server in of itself but the amount of people all thrown in to one mix which goes completely against the design of the game to begin with. It’s pretty clear that everything starts to break down after you go over the 5-6k mark, that’s also kind of my point. The smaller servers (the healthy ones like mine) still have a very active LFG channel, there’s still communication, there’s still people networking, speaking to each other, advertising dungeons and asking around for them in the games channels. Most of the time I join a PUG people tend to communicate in a way that’s completely different from retail, that’s what’s important for me to preserve.
Do you really think that if Firemaw was capped to a healthy level of players, that it would be the same as it is now? That’s really what I think should be fixed here rather than everyone accepting the status quo and just throwing the community (what’s left of it) under the bus in favour of convenience because Zoomergodx rolled on the Asmongold server and it’s a hellish experience. Obviously I can’t speak of your experiences but finding groups for most dungeons, creating them or even finding people on my server is a non-existent issue outside of like 4:00 am in the morning. Is it really impossible on a server as large as Firemaw?
Obviously I would just be repeating myself I can only go from my own experience in Wrath back when I originally played, Argent Dawn had a ridiculous amount of people on the server I still remember people logging in before work or school to be able to get on before the queue started which usually lasted well in to the evening. Finding a HC under those circumstances wasn’t hard or even challenging in any respect, neither was completing them because I’m sure as you know they’re basically a joke in WOTLK. Pulling half the dungeon to the boss, AoEing it down and moving on to the next set of packs felt like the general experience I had back then when arguably players were far worse than they are now.
The community I knew only started to become anti-social the minute they no longer needed each other, which I think is just the reality for most things in life. I don’t disagree for the most part, the more I’ve argued with people I can understand what people are saying but I also think it’s been exaggerated for the sake of argument. Ultimately what I say doesn’t matter because the devs will do what the majority of people here want - I wouldn’t be surprised if withholding the LFD was a stunt to get people to ask for it - over all I don’t think you’re wrong I just think people too quick jump to an extreme solution when there might be a middle ground. I just don’t think it’ll be as nearly as bad people say because I’ve lived that pre LFD experience in a time when people were still regularly clicking and backpedalling in HC dungeons. What LFD epitomized to me was hyper individualism and shedding the need to no longer rely on players, which really what I wanted to avoid.
If Blizzard were to/could maintain a social atmosphere that’s healthy for the community, like you mentioned, then I agree. LFG would be detrimental in that specific case, although it still has other positives that I love but that’s just personal preference and can’t be argued over.
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And what about any of this is… “social”, exactly? Why do we also need the extra part where (1) we need to whisper group makers faster than other ppl, especially if you’re a DPS, and (2) you need to get on the other side of the continent for the heroic in question, when the experience inside is largely the same as with LFD (except possibly the “ninja” part, which is admittedly a plus but not that big of one once you mostly start doing these dungeons for emblems only)?
But they still need each other for raids? I mean, I could understand this argument for LFR, but I rly don’t see the point for LFD tbh.
What the devs will do is anybody’s guess at some point. Especially after reading BB’s posts about Dual Spec on Twitter, I’m personally convinced they’re utterly ignorant of the game they’re supposed to develop.
I wish that was the case, but I have a hunch this is yet another case of Blizzard acting stubbornly because they think they know better.
Well, at the very least having an automated queue system without the teleport would alleviate what I feel is most people’s biggest issue with the current situation - the spamfest that is LFG chat (what is social about it, anyway?). But it seems daddy Blizzard knows too well to listen to reason.
I mean, we can already see how bad it is now, so the safest guess is that without LFD it’ll be just as bad in WotLK - most ppl simply won’t feel the need to go through the hassle of doing heroics when they can just do raids instead. As much as I like to rely on players, I also don’t like to go through the hassle of doing so for content that doesn’t deserve it in terms of time/reward ratio, like most group quests and dungeons. Sure, you could say grouping is its own reward, but I’d rather do so where there’re other rewards as well, such as raid. Lack of LFD simply means that the time I could’ve spent in dungeons will be spent farming alone in the outer world while waiting for a raid. Such social experience.
P.S.: Before you reply “Haha that’s just you” to the last paragraph, consider this - why would I go through the hassle of wading through endless LFG posts, trying to find a dungeon, getting a group to said dungeon (which, depending on ppl’s laziness, can easily take almost as long as doing the dungeon itself in WotLK), and doing the dungeon itself for a paltry reward when I could employ the same time waiting for a raid while farming stuff that is actually useful for raiding? Plus the fact that, if I’m in a dungeon, I risk missing a chance for said raid because ofc I wouldn’t leave the group in the same way I would in RDF since they’d be screwed much harder if I did? Just some food for thought here.
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The social part comes from having to interact with people outside of closed off groups and pre established cliques, which is what are amplified when you create a system that allows players to ignore the world around them. It atomizes the community, especially when it’s drawing from a pool of players that are on every server rather than just your own.
They do but it nullifies the worth of the individual to such a level they no longer have that worth anymore, I don’t think players being treated like disposable objects will ever be a good thing and especially not when their aren’t hard consequences for abusing the system which is what people do all the time on retail.
If the server issues were addressed, if they actually fixed those issues and made it so LFG with out cross realm was a thing would that be an acceptable compromise at all to you?
Well, I think you’re speaking in absolutes and my server isn’t a bad experience when it comes to finding group so when you say how bad it is now I can only assume that Mirage Raceway must be a complete hellhole because even now at this time of day I can log in to find groups for HCs. If that’s the case I can understand why you want a solo player experience and don’t care much for anything I have to really say so what would be the point of me actually regurgitating my beliefs? If you see no benefit to the dungeons, like literally none, outside of the ability to sign up for them and have the process be automated I don’t know what you expect me to say? There’s no point in doing them at all then if that’s the case, is there? Also why are you spamming dungeons with randoms just before your main raid?
If those dungeons were never worth it in the first place why wouldn’t you be outside farming raid consumes to begin with? Automating the ability to sign up to them isn’t somehow going to improve their loot or change the badge vendors is it? I don’t know what groups you’ve been playing in but even on my server which is a backwater I rarely struggle to find group and the quality tends to be very high, which is another important point personal responsbility goes straight out the window with LFD. Quality control with LFD is too non existent as well.
There goes the social aspect → “Fu because You are not like us” 
By interacting you mean “throwing whispers faster than other players?”. Because rly that is what “interaction” is for most players engaging in 5m pugging in TBC. Not to mention that you can still engage with other people in pug raids and, due to how raids work, you actually get to know players a lot more than in dungeons. I for one hardly even remember people I played dungeons with, but I ended up befriending quite a few players and even guilds by doing Kara and especially ZA runs with them. Even the guild I’m currently in is one I first familiarized with through Kara pugs back in Summer 2021.
Never seen any of this in raids, to be honest. In 5m LFD yes, but as I said I believe the pros vastly outweigh the cons, as I explained quite a few times already. You just seem to stubbornly refuse to admit the near complete lack of social experience in 5m dungeons these days.
The X-realm part is, tbf, the least important part of the LFD tool for me. If I were to order the things that matter the most for LFD to me, I’d say:
- The auto-queue system
- The teleport
- The X-realm
It’s not that you can’t find groups. You can. It’s just that, by and large, it’s generally worth it as it currently is.
Consider this situation. I’m farming with my rogue alt for consumables in Nagrand or Blade’s Edge, when I see somebody looking for, say, 2 DPS and a tank for SP HC on LFG chat. Should I join? Lemme consider 3 possible scenarios (I know it sounds crazy thorough but I have quite a few alts so I’ve gone through several situations which I think are all worth looking at):
1) The char I would join the heroic with is the rogue itself
That has the advantage that I can keep on farming while the group forms, but the disadvantage that, once we’re gtg, I need to take my rogue to the dungeon, away from the farming grounds (which might be on the other side of the continent or, if it’s CoT, on another continent altogether) - that’s already at least 10-15 mins wasted, considering the journey back and forth. Now that I’m in, the dungeon is gonna take around 15-20 mins or so (I’m sure some of you hardcore will say it’s much shorter, but we’re assuming an average pug with low levels of gear and some degree of laziness here, not a Discord-organized group or something). In terms of gold I might earn something but not rly a lot because of all the mob pack skipping, plus if I die to trash even a couple times I might not even break even if it’s not the daily (and that’s without imputing the opportunity cost of not being farming, otherwise it’d be a setback of 100+g right there). And for all my trouble what I get are three Badges of Justice. To make things worse, if a Kara or something pops up while I’m inside the dungeon, then I risk either missing out on it or pissing off the other poor saps in my group - all while having my guild tag atop my head in the process. All in all, it’s not really worth it unless I’m saved for pretty much everything but I’m still desperate for badges.
2) The char I would join the heroic with is another DPS alt
On the upside, I can just log off with my rogue, which means I’m not sacrificing the time I spend to go back to the farming grounds. On the downside, I have to relog on another char who might not have the professions, mount or gear to farm effectively and there’s no telling how long it’s going to take before the group forms, if at all (I’ve seen lots of groups dying after spamming “LF tank” forever, especially if it’s not the daily). Other than that, it’s the same story as above in terms of gold break-even, rewards, and opportunity risk with raids etc.
3) The char I would join with is a tank
On the upside, not only do I not need to leave my farming grounds, but this also cuts completely the time to actually form the group, generally. On the downside, good luck breaking even in gold at all, even if you don’t die (and chances are you might anyway). And there’s still the problem of what if a chance for a raid spot pops up meanwhile - even moreso than with other roles since leaving a group as a tank is much more of a death sentence for the group itself. And again, all I’m getting are a handful Badges. Which generally are even more useless for the tank (there’s not rly that much badge gear for tanks before SWP, and tanks generally gear up more easily in raids). Again, not really worth it.
LFD would greatly help in this sense, both in the sense that I can cut the time loss due to moving to and from the dungeon (especially if I queue with the char I’m already doing stuff with anyway), and in the sense I don’t have to worry about missing a raid while doing dungeons - I can just drop the group, knowing LFD will give my party a replacement in a reasonable timeframe.
With LFD, you can spam dungeons quickly enough to actually rack up a decent Emblem-per-hour ratio, and even if you have, like, only 30 min free it’s much easier to squeeze in a run than if you have to wade through LFG chat.
I’m talking about pug raids. Pug Kara and ZAs already come up on LFG chat pretty regularly, and 10m pugs will be way more common in WotLK.
I am, in fact, but with LFD you can do pretty much both things without having to compromise much.
No, but it’s going to increase the badge-per-hour count significantly, while making it easier to leave if you have to in order to join a sudden pug raid.
You rly don’t need “quality” for WotLK dungeons anyway. As for human quality, they might have, but nobody’s gonna find out while everyone’s just cleaving stuff silently with or without LFD.
What a luck that Era servers will still be around. I am going to paly Wrath mostly for the achievements, and the back to Era I go See you there.