Are you even reading what are you replying? You insist that shamans are mobile than you because:
Then you say this about arms which has nothing to do with mobility
Are you implying that “insane healing reducation” or “being ultra tanky” means immunity to slows?
Your issue is that you don’t even know what shamans do probably, so you have to throw this nonsense. I don’t see what prevents your shaman to throw frost shock on warrior, use Ghost wolf to be able to run on 100% movement speed, use earthgrab totem. It won’t prevent arms at all, but will be enough for him to not have 100% uptime. DH doesn’t have less mobility than arms, some would say that it has even better.
ur at 1.7k mmr with around 2k games and 48% winrate…and also stacking mastery instead of haste…and also you’re ventyr
see the problem here? not everyone you’re facing is warrior…
rofl why those people speak ?
Not if it’s split evenly across the match. But yes sometimes it works and they die faster, but leaving healer alone vs arms is sort of gambling.
It’s bad because gcds are longer and can’t cast many abilities in succession, yes. But I outdps haste DHs almost always (but hard to tell is it because they are haste or because they are NF). It’s also bad because blade dance doesn’t benefit from it so I can’t use it in dps rotation (hence also can’t use mortal dance), but eye beams and annihilations are strong af, esp when chained by darkglare medallion / relentless onslaught. So it’s + and -.
Hm, I agree to that, maybe I’ll be better with Burning Hatred.
Yeeees, as I said, I tried playing with them, the dps loss outweighted healing reduction (adding blade dance to rotation means I’ll do less eyebeams/annihilations which is what does dps). They would work in 3v3 since they’d benefit other dps too but when I’m sole dps it’s not worth it (for mastery build at least). And 25% is not that great, ofc I’d use it for 50% or 100% which is what arms has.
It’s not just ‘having or not having mortal strike’, it’s how strong it is, 25% is nothing compared to what arms can do.
I can still use shackles when I need to limit healing, it’s usually enough.
Well, we win over them just by stunning the hunt (or even letting the hunt go through and then putting darkness and ccing DH). Maybe NF better vs arms, but I like how my build performs against most comps so far.
Sometimes it works, so it’s still beneficial (even if it doesn’t work every time). I.e. I had cases vs RM when I saw my healer sapped and did vg immediately, and saw rogue came out of stealth wasting his stun (which lead to winning game).
Well, with my build I lose a lot of dps by adding blade dance into rotation, so no. I agree it would work for haste builds.
Well, I don’t like relying on perfect scenarios and ideal setups, it’s just too boring, to demanding and mistakes are too punishing, and also more predictable to enemy team (game turns into sorts of card game, and some comps will just have more cards to play with).
That is fine, it can’t be completely wrong because it is I who chooses when to actually eyebeam somebody, but even one eyebeam is fine. It’s all about being lucky on average. The good side is that enemy team will never see it coming, i.e. they see first eye beam - ok, healer starts healing, second eyebeam - they kick, ok, 3 sec silence, but then third eye beam and fourth, they pop defensives (or just die) etc. They are not prepared for that (most likely waiting for the hunt instead to stun it and saving defensives for it aswell).
Again, easily countered - the hunt sound is easily recognizable and mostly everybody now have muscle memory to put defensives after it, to stun it, to save trinkets for it, to cc DH hard after, etc.
Yes it would work in perfect setup where you manage to bait out all defensives, stuns, trinkets, but that’s always long and boring road and mistakes are punished.
Hm, didn’t know, but, still, target can just kite away. With medallion I can fel rush / felblade to them and eyebeam again.
Also, if they kick eyebeam/fel devastation they’ll both stop no? Or if they stun DH - then for sure. The difference is even if eye beam was kicked I can often cast another one after 3 seconds (and they will have kick on cd!). So shutting down eye beams becomes a problem for them, forcing to spend stuns or defensives.
I know, I mean scenario when I see that eyebeam cd is reset (it resets immediately after I start eyebeam so I already know if I have second one available). I haven’t tried fakecasting it tho, even 3 second silence is not big deal if I can cast another one after that.
Well, it’s about synergy.
Some approximate math for eye beam:
damage increased by vers +34%
then increased by mastery +42%
then increased by chaotic imprint +10%
then increased by serrated glaives +16%
then increased by isolated prey by +10%
then casted multiple times by medallion procs (not always but often)
I’m not sure if % add up or multiply but sounds good on paper, no?
Depends vs what comp we are, sometimes healers just can’t outheal all that. But even if they can they are never prepared for sudden extra eye beams or extra annihilations (3-4 are not uncommon, with each double-hitting for ~8k non-crit). Also bigger total damage will win in dampening game and mana game often.
When he comes to help his healer I need to put defensives or stun him, or run away.
Yes and they have cds so he has time to heal between them.
I’m seeing rdruids outhealing my healer with insta heals fairly often (while also cycloning me and running away from me and even finding time to drink in stealth).
Then possibly that alone will be enough, why NF?
They must be NF, best noobstomping class.
They do bad things so I blur, stun or run away when they happen.
Probably some aoe stuff.
Well, idk, buffs defence?
Yes I see I do more hps than arms but still tiny amount not viable for survival (and I need to hit something to heal, which is problematic at low hp).
Either something that makes him immortal, or something that kills everything that comes near. He keeps rotating those.
Far from useless, just need to be used on stunned targets. Also does wonders vs double dps that can’t dispel. Also +6% vers and +3% to mate (regardless if dot itself is dispelled or not). Oh, I also found one more use - when healer does mindgames I also put sinful brand and then they’ll have harder time dispelling mindgames (can also add shackles into the mix).
I mean it’s not some braindead “win” button but it has it’s uses.
Now that is useless vs skilled players because they’ll stun it or put defensives and survive.
No.
I wouldn’t call 10-15% leech ‘self healing’ (and that’s the maximum one can get on arena). Mages, druids, monks, palas, spriests, dps shamans, even rogues heal themselves almost as much as healers can, leech is nothing compared to it (but yes arms heal even less, but they are tanky).
Actually I’m going to try telling my healers to run around walls vs them, maybe they just don’t know.
Yes, see above. I wish there was similar talent for chaos strike / annihilation though, I’d 100% use it.
It works well vs most comps.
See above, I tried it with my build and it lowered my total dps more (due to inclusion of blade dance into rotation which doesn’t benefit from mastery).
Wind what?
Actually they have something vs slows and stuns aswell.
I’m gonna make 5k games this year just to piss you off btw.
I like to be special, where’s the fun of just copying others and walking same road everybody already passed thousands of times.
But problems currently are only with arms, sometimes with hunters (but I know what to improve about it ), and sometimes about R/M (I kinda know what to improve there too), most other comps give positive winrate.
HAHAHA, nice one. More than half of games are vs arms warriors now (at 1.7k-1.8k).
Wait, what? Counter how? Dispel?
Anywaaaaaaaaaay… Let’s see how well arms do vs chaotic imprint + serraited glaive eyebeams, will test tomorrow a bit.
This is your mistake because when he comes to defend you should be doing even more damage instead of running away since now you can effectively hit both targets basically doubling your dps
If he uses CDs its alredy your win. Dont waste your mobility and use them sparingly, you should not need more than one fel rush (+maybe felblade) at once to reach him around the pillar. Chose the correct angle, at correct time instead of spending all your mobility at once and then have nothing left.
Well becuase they heal with hots, your two options are either change targets often and make rdruid reapply his hots and get oom faster or try to nuke rdruid which is what NF demonhunter excells at. This also the ansfer why NF.
Bad things is not an answer. Read up what they do and then answer me again. Same to every other ability aswell.
Yeah and you should read what warrior defense abilities do aswell.
You know that he can dispel all those 3 things at once if they overlap? It’s not classic. Dispel works differently here.
Are we playing pve or pvp now? Here is simple math question you could get in school:
In first case you do 100k damage with 25% healing reduction. In second case you do 125k damage with 0% healing reduction. In which case does the enemy healer has to heal more to heal all that damage away? Maybe now you do understand the benefit of the healing reduction? Especially, when as you say yourself, your build is oriented at doing dps, not at oneshotting somebody so 0.1 sec burst damage does not matter.
Again, read it up and look what it does.
That’s nothing to be proud of. You should not grind rating, you should actively try to improve.
Seeing as many others have already said this, I’m only going to say this once. I will say this with absolute sincerity before I inevitably go back to ****posting.
Demon Hunters require NF in order to close out games. The Hunt is your win condition. The class has no real burst of its own, and as you said yourself, Metamorphosis by itself doesn’t really accomplish much of anything.
Without NF all you have is sustained damage. In previous metas, high sustained damage combined with Mana Rift was enough, but in Shadowlands it is not. All Sinful Brand provides you with is a sustained damage DoT that arguably does less damage than The Hunt’s while also being dispellable.
There is zero justification for your covenant choice in PvP. Nobody here is going to sit down and call you out for playing the way you want to play, however trying to convince people that Venthyr is anything other than objectively inferior to Night Fae in every conceivable manner is not going to garner you any legitimate feedback other than to change covenant.
Play what you want to play to have fun, but actively trying to improve at PvP while playing a suboptimal loadout in this day and age is like trying to learn to ride a bike after replacing the wheels with concrete blocks. You’re actively griefing yourself before you’ve even begun.
Yes and he can oneshot me. DH the most paper class ever.
To counter one specific class?
Anyway, rdruids are doable if they aren’t with hunters or arms, I can just split dps and put pressure on both until druid can’t heal anymore. Arms and hunters are problem because they kill one of us faster.
Alright, I’ll check it out, just a bit later (too lazy now).
‘he’ who? Shaman? Or any healer class? (never played healer so idk)
Odds were far worse when I used blade dance, dps fell almost 2x. So it would be ‘100k with 25%’ vs ‘200k with 0%’ and the answer is obvious.
Taking some arbitrary 100% and 125% is nice and all but I tested this in practice.
But I hate reading.
Improvements happen every game, it’s inevitable. Yes progress can be speed up a bit by reading guides and stuff, but it’s boring and I’m not in a hurry.
I mean I’m already hitting 1780 every other day, just need to get several games vs beatable comps and it’s easy rival.
Not something I observe playing vs them.
Yes, one trick pony easily counterable (especially by skilled players).
My build gives lots of RNG-based mini-bursts, some with dps comparable to the hunt or more (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnNK3PiHdF8&t=59s). Yes they aren’t controllable. But there’s more of them on average. So enemy team will have to run out of defensives or die (unless we got very unlucky).
Except for teleport, free eyebeam, free double sinful brand, extra leech and stacked 8k-16k annihilations. Yeah, nothing special.
Vs some comps it is, healer gets pressured and sooner or later RNG mini-burst happens and allows to finish the job.
But with 2x lower cd aswell, and insta-casted, and two free dots on big meta (perfectly followed by aoe stun to keep dots on both targets).
And the hunt is stunnable. Yes it works on stunned targets but so do dots.
Also sinful brand can be nice finisher when somebody is about to run away (i.e. rogue), and synergizes with shackles too.
If it’s so inferior - why are we farming NF DHs for free cr?
I’m not observing it vs most comps. Only arms and hunters are problems and NF wouldn’t help much.
Overall your healer didn’t helped you, the hex he can dispell, he don’t dispell shakles, his position is open when versus a shaman he should be near pillar to avoid interrumpt, and tend to heal too much when he could just forst shock and run away to avoid damage.
So for each videos on your side what you could have done:
1.For the first videos,
you play too much defensive, when a warrior is out of defensive stance, it’s better to full damage and force him to go on defensive stance, i heard you got a addon that say “sweeping strike”, the good news is sweeping strike is the cleave of the warrior, and got the same coodlown of Blurr (your dodge). and if he switch to you will tend to use netherwalk if he goes warkbreaker or Spear.
*Need to be more reactive when the shaman dispell , to immediately shackles since for 6 seconds after dispelling, the shaman can’t dispell again. Abuse of that with your venthyr with follow up shackles and the warrior will 100% dislike that and must abandon your shaman
Your shaman got the legendary of earthquake on earth elem, that mean that you need to deal a lot of damage on the target of the elemental to force your opponent to be back on defensive. Banishing the warrior can cause the elemental to switch target and lose the pressure on the warrior and make the warrior more aggressive, personnaly i would have banish the shaman and jump meta on the warrior to set my first burst, forcing trinket and CD from warrior at the start.
When you switched back to the warrior, when he fear you, it because he really fear your pressure : a elemental earthquake + DH is a really hard handling situation for opponent that must force them to play defensive. Here the warrior was 100% aggressive on your healer ( using everytool he got to smash healer ) mean he forgot that you existed, trinket immediatly the fear and make him understand that your shaman must be let alone so your shaman can go behind pillar casting without being slowed or interrumpted by ennemy shaman.
take your time to place well your mass stun, the mass stun is dispellable, when the healer is nearby, waiting 2 seconds to stun both of them is very valuable, since none of them will be able to dispell. Here in a rush you panicked and instant stun, after trinket fear take time to double stun and punish shaman position, and after you can ST stun the warrior if he trinketed.
Essence break (talent) is really not the move, you goal is mostly to press blade dance to apply mortal dance to reduce the healing incoming from the warrior. Pressing Blade dance with mortal wound in honor talent set a huge pressure and force the warrior to stay in defensive. Without it , the warrior is like taking a permanent 20% healing more and don’t feel the need to be in defensive stance. Blade dance is part of your rotation, take First blood to abuse of it. Mostly when shaman healer mastery is " more less health, heal more" the mortal wound is a pain for the shaman.
Reverse magic is a must have , not only for yourself but for your shaman. Here when he root you at the start, the reverse magic can free you and your shaman instantly. making you allow to directly go on the warrior to stop his way onto your shaman.
The shaman must be kept mounted while you stop the warrior going to him. Every distance your shaman get our from the warrior is soo much damage avoided and so he can freely cast and keeping pace for healing.
kept your fel eruption for every warbreaker he do, reducing his uptime on warbreaker is really huge and allow your shaman to get distance back and counter the burst without using cooldown. If the shaman is near, you can double stun the shaman and warrior with a mass stun. remember that the fel eruption is NOT dispellable when the mass stun IS.
If you see the buff on the warrior, he’s running venthyr soulbind. that mean he use condemn and so above 80% and under 35% he will dominate. Play around that and tell your healer to be carefull. Warrior is mostly avoiding damage than self healing and being 100% health.
there’s more but i gonna pass on the 2nd videos :
For the second videos :
Replace Chaos imprint ( honor talent) by reverse magic , not only it’s again a shaman that can mass root you but also in the videos you could reverse the shackles to save your shaman from death.
Stay mounted as much as you can as melee !!! Mount is a OP mouvement speed, and it will make you save a lot of mobility when you will need it. only dismount when you get slow, but like if you go directly on the shaman, you must Line of Sight him to avoid getting slow and then after reaching the pillar, be next to the pillar to reach him and avoid slow. But really important to get the most value of your mount, DH is based on mobility class, do not waste your mobility.
it is not possible for the shaman to CC warrior ( saw in text chat) due the ennemy shaman can dispell curse, and he warrior can interrumpt and also spell reflect it, making the shaman hexing the warrior having a big lost. the only way for the shaman is to interrumpt the Rshaman in front, hex him while the warrior don’t have interrumpt up to stop it.
nice vengefull retreat on the storm bolt, was beautifull
Ghost wolf form is dispellable, and give you energy, good to stop him running and if you shaman have used frost shock instead of flame shock, making the ennemy shaman proprely slowed and reacheable since under ghost wolf he can’t be slowed down under 100%.
Don’t lose time reaching someone, the most important part is to deal damage, switch back immediatly on the warrior if you lost 2 seconds and let the ennemy shaman expose himself ( due to his need to heal his guys, he must get out of pillar ). That absurd but in shadowland, damage is very important and it’s better to do damage than doing a random control ( value more a great control at a great time than a damage, but a random control can’t value more than damage).
Seek reverse magic , really you can’t door of shadow a root, it’s really not worth it to use door of shadow how you used it in the 2Nd video…
You used essence break and then banish him… make your cooldown valuable. but like the 1st videos, you should have run the mortal wound effect.
Understand what your opponent seek, at 2:22 yousee the warrior is near 2 totem : what totem he seeked to destroy ? what it a healing tide totem ? ( it was a healing tide totem thank to the addon you see above your shaman) Does it mean that after the tide he will go back ? ( yes due to rally cry used, he can’t hide behind pillar due to if rally cry run out, he lost health and can die, he needed then to get rage and be closer to his healer, avoiding your damage with a charge). And so with that in mind the meta you don’t pre select near more the pillar but more in the direction of the healer. also remember the animation of your meta : the closer you set, the less time you will have to wait.
if both low and inside a spirit link , it’s soo valuable to set Darkness on the spirit link. The spirit link is a stabiliser between the team, but is not a real defensive ( due to cleave possible making the shaman hell.
I hope all of it will help.
You can also check what other people tend to use on talent here : https://www.pvpleaderboard.com/pvp/demon-hunter/havoc#soulbinds
if you stay venthyr, i don’t think theotar is good on PvP due to RNG, nadjia is really good for PvP and DH with the haste ( give yu more damage) and so many other tool to counter warrior.
but yea, if all done written above, you will see a clear sky in front of you after that !
Wow, what a great post, thanks
Yes most of it helps, except some minor things like:
It’s not, though, as I said - it doesn’t benefit from mastery so I lose a lot of dps by including it (and healing reduction won’t make up for dps loss).
I use it vs hunters and mages, but there are other valuable talents that I need in it’s place otherwise.
For myself I can counter roots with door of shadows anyway (yes it needs some cast time but also is distance closer).
Good to know, although he needs to be in line of sight so I need to get close to him which is the trickiest part when he’s at opposite side of wall.
I feel more like it’s good on PvP due to RNG Just need to learn to survive better and fish good procs (the longer the game - the more good procs happen), and either finish by surprise mini-burst or win dampening/mana game in the end.
Haste is good for many things (such as smaller gcds) but mastery with medallion and relentless onslaught conduit seems to outperform it in dps, and soothing shade seems to double dps further (yes I need to stay in it but it’s not as hard as people think, I can just stun my target or lure them onto me, or just spam eye beams which are ranged). Oh, and it heals me aswell which is quite welcome.
And I get some haste by demonic form anyway so it’s like ~25-35% haste / ~80% mastery / ~40% versatility when all stuff procs (and extra +15% haste from power infusion if I’m with priest).
Even if I wanted to test haste build it’s not some easy switch, I’d need to replace most of the gear and so far I don’t see reason.
Please tell me what kind of math have you done that pressing an ability once every 10 seconds to apply mortal strike would cut your damage in half? Even if it did literally zero damage it would still be a net positive.
But you surely don’t hate reading all the comments here and responding to them.
Ah yes, the typical “he oneshots me” excuse. If anything doesn’t fit your narrative it’s always “He just looks at me and I die it’s just the class that is OP dont argue with me because I am always right with my made up facts”
I think healing reduction is super powerful.
Its effectiveness gets stronger as the game lasts longer because of Dampening.
I’d get that over some raw damage buff anytime if it helps OOMing the opponent.
It lasts for 5 seconds (maybe got nerfed?). So I’d need to include it to normal rotation because most healers just keep healing 24/7 (except when stunned).
It would decrease dps by:
taking 1 gcd away every 5 seconds (so one less annihilation which is potentially 8k damage and up to 24k-32k if conduit procs well). Note that low haste builds have longer gcds so taking one away is a big deal.
taking precious fury (not much but still) which I always have shortage of due to a bit low haste, so I’ll need to spam more felblade / immo auras instead of more annihilations/eye beams
Yes and no.
It’s not just my opinion that DH is the most paper class ever (ok, maybe #2 after paladins).
But not at the expense of dps.
Yes but so is effectiveness of dps. It’s not so different, only net value (how much extra they’ll need to heal) matters and with my build higher dps wins over lower dps + healing reduction. I imagine in 3v3 it would be different but I’m doing only 2v2 for now.
Yes but with my build it’s debuff (because I’ll need to include weak ability into dps rotation to use this talent), I tried it.
About this argument you can stun the Hunt or trinket stun. Most DH players do like this. They stun + eye beam while 2nd guy is in CC. Since they have to Eye Beam it’s obvious he is almost on top of the target. With haste stuck and meta. Cast of the Hunt is less than 1 sec. To make the Hunt CD triggered and damage not received you need to CC DH during the Hunt flight time. Since it’s very fast flight and you are on top of the target someone needs to have unnaturally fast reactions to do this.
I played with my friend over 100 arenas. It happened twice. Once we played vs rank 1 Monk on his alt. He used ring of Peace so it stopped Hunt flight time. 2nd time my friend got into random trap that was missed by Hunter before.
It’s not that someone can stop even 10% of the Hunt cast. If they CC you during the Hunt cast. You just want for the next stun + Eye Beam and try again. This time enemy has no trinket.
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