No one wants to grind out dated content for a chance at a titanforged item when they could be doing something they enjoy.
Nothing was said about not enjoying the game.
I don’t want to become over geared. I never said or implied that I did. Don’t just invent things for yourself to argue against.
I don’t want to grind for the same item over and over again.
like in SL seasion 4 they just increases the ilvl had players to do all raids/m+ allover again … this will happen in DF seasion 2 aswell …
Blizzard released the hardest tier of all time with the least amount of time to clear in SL, which was met with anger. I’m fine with harder tier if the time window to clear is proportionate to the difficulty. I mean SoTFO should have lasted for a year instead of half a year for example. Given the current tier difficulty and expected path length, I think the balance here is good.
Also, raiding becoming more difficult, would could lead to more degenerate play styles… Let’s be cautious when asking such a thing…
Your right tho asmongold and his fanatics might think they are the majority but they’re not. He might be the largest wow streamer but that doesn’t make his opinion fact.
There’s some difficult bosses in vault and that’s a good thing. At least personally I think raiding should have some challenging bosses otherwise what’s the point.
Not everyone is going to get max loot and that’s fine. Honestly that’s a good thing in a mmo
Yeah but majority’s right, right ?
Asmongold should probably not talk about raiding, since his achievements since legion is being carried by his sims :x
That literally what i said asmongolds fans are a large vocal minority
“Breaking news! didi did di didi dii sound effects
Homeless goblin looking man that nibbles on $2 steaks predicted the end of the world… of warcraft raiding! Now for the weather, Carl?”
The problem isn’t spamming Shadow Bolt and never was, because Lock never wasn’t like that but in one bad designed raid.
If you try to play Warlock like that in any expansion you are up to hard life.
Just because Blizzards raid designers are too bad to design a class without breaking it completely doesn’t mean “less keys” is a bad thing.
The other end of bad was feral design in WotLk, I think especially in this Tournament Raid patch.
The point is: More keys doesn’t make a class suddenly more fun or interesting to play. As one key doesn’t make it neither.
I really hate it when people simplify things they hear from streamers and think that was the “normal state of the game”.
Not sure why you’re taking this guys side, when he literally gets boosted for everything in the game, dude isn’t even involved that much (unless he still plays, haven’t watched him for months)
I like how my entire thread is very simple.
Raid difficulty + playing your class difficulty + lack of borrowed power = Raids are too hard.
The person above is like, oh yeah I played MMOs for 7 years and had to install a weakaura to play RET PALADIN optimally.
Like, the entire point of my thread is that the game is too difficult to stay alive in the long run, the person basically completely proves my point and you don´t even realize it!!
Such clowning. We literally have logs from Classic that show that somehow 15 year old bad raids had better logs than modern WoW.
You can´t do the entire ´´you think you do thing´´, you have already been disproven. Take the forum pvp L and move on. WoW Classic was incredibly popular, you can´t change the past. Retail Wow being outdone by TBC raids. Like it already happened and was discussed in my last thread.
Kanred if you gonna do the entire troll thing you gotta learn to not open your mouth, because you just end up setting urself up for defeat.
Izi pizi.
What about the minority that have just stopped playing the game?
Success of Classic WoW, TBC and Wrath have all shown that people WANT to raid socially. But how on earth would you ever convince these people to play modern WoW with all the homework you would have to do?
The chances of titanforging are so incredibly low, that no one with a basic understanding of mathematics should ever feel ´´forced´´ to do stuff like LFR to get better gear (in a world with titanforging). It´s just a nice bonus if you help your friends, or if you farm tier sets, that you can actually get stuff you need through luck.
Importantly, Titanforging has the added bonus of increasing ilvl through time. Thus enabling the outgearing of content, and even making stuff like re-clears faster in the long run.
I also think it is interesting that Blizzard re-introduced titanforging for some parts of DF and no one complained about it.
See how happy everyone is when you loot a 382 or 385 item instead of a 372 thats what titanforging is about tell me you dont miss it :)
— Liquid Thdlock (@Thdlock) December 4, 2022
Meta-slaving is entirely the problem from content being too difficult though. Like, no one cares what spec you have in a m0. At the same time, In Classic WoW I raided MC and BWL with people who were Elemental Shamans and Boomkins. Both were awful specs, but it didn´t matter because the content was so easy.
There is of course also the problem with some classes being way more difficult than others to play. DH was super strong in S1. Because it was a strong spec, and very difficult to misplay. So it was brought a lot when content was challenging (s1 of BFA)
Whereas the end of BFA in corruption era. If I wanted a +15 done I would not even care what class / Spec I invited because doing the weekly was so easy. So making the game easier, made the game more enjoyable for those that played bad classes with a bad reputation.
No it wasn´t. Raiding was about bringing 40 ppl together having a good time and getting epic loot.
PvE players were constantly made fun off in WoW during Vanilla and called carebears by PvP players because the content was so easy (but successful mind you).
Raiding in WoW should be about getting together and having a good time. Not trying to ´´challenge´´ players, especially with regards to the current difficulty that is just too much. Want a challenge? Go play SC2 as random, play Dota or CS:GO. WoW has been focusing on challenging content post-Legion, and it has been a complete failure.
You keep talking about normal, but look at the mythic logs? It´s a massive failure.
If I misunderstood what you were saying then feel free to ignore me. But when you say souls-like? Do you mean Dark Souls? Because that game is very easy, and even more important, the game solves the BIG issue I talk about in this thread and that everyone ignores.
The Souls-games allow you to out-level / out-gear content!!
Stuck in the game? Go somewhere else. Cleared everything? Go find more Estus Flasks. Found all the spells / XP / explored everything? Farm random monsters for an hour, suddenly you have 10 extra levels.
The problem with current WoW is that the game does not really provide any good way for the bad players to ´´out-gear´´ content in its current state. Legion and BFA both did this really well with their borrowed power systems.
It´s why you will inevitably see Blizzard nerf the last bosses of heroic or more bosses on Mythic. Because players are only really going to gain small ilvl increase, instead of the big dmg / hps / hp increases they got during Legion / BFA from AP and Titanforging.
Again, another loss. Trying to change the goal post. Like what you are saying is people who play Classic Wrath actually do it because they enjoy that part of the game (raiding socially), and do the content in the game that they enjoy (raiding socially)?
No i explained what it meant but you are just trying to clutch at straws as you are mad you just got back from a ban and bumping a post out of spite.
So your solution is remove any and all difficulty no thats stupid
I totally agree that the raids are too difficult for the casual player and they should tune them down, heres a few things that are hurting the WoW game atm:
Group loot - should be an OPT IN for the guilds wishing to do so. We went from the possibility of 1,2 or even 3 pieces of loot / raid in Shadowlands, to zero for weeks in row in Dragonflight
Tone down the raid difficulty or set a separate category for those racing for world first. Don`t drag the average player into your professional ambitions
Return to 15 the cap of Mythic+ dungeons
Give more power to set bonuses
I have a suspicion that the difficulty of the game increasing is done solely for money purpose, since it promotes boosting.
I’d like to make a slightly different perspective to the issue you’re raising.
I disagree that normal is too hard, myself and my guild are pretty laid back raiders, we cleared normal on the first weekend. VOTI is one of the easiest raids in a long time. That being said, I would like to make the following point, which I believe is a great problem that plagues many aspects of this game:
World of Warcraft is one of the few games that literally teaches you nothing. Barre some extremely basic loading screen “tips” and some very basic UI explanation stuff during the Exile’s Reach questline, when do you actually learn anything about either your class/spec or common boss mechanics?
Nearly all games will have some sort of practice mode, or basic gameplay advice, even bloody Dark Souls teaches you the basics before sending you out to your doom. When does wow do this?
I vaguely remember the proving grounds, and I remember these going down really badly. There has been no attempt since.
Why can’t you learn advanced rotation or other class concepts in game?
Why isn’t there some sort of boss or dungeon practice mode?
Like imagine some sort gauntlet practice run with all sorts dummies and npcs shouting the utter basics at you. “Get out of this area now!” “Everybody stack around your CHARACTER NAME to help mitigate the upcoming ability”.
How about a practice raid, no not some sort of LFR sh@@tshow, but a version of the current raid, or a raidlike environment of sorts, where you need a premade group, there’s no loot reward, and no durability damage. Players can actually get in there and practice playing the game.
Can we get something like that first in the game, actually teach the broader player base to do this kind of content, and then re assess the situation? You got to remember, if raids are getting harder, is because players are getting better. There’s a lot of raiders out there, no not competitive ones, not RWF esport fanatics or whatever, just raiders who clear normal to mythic with relative ease. Would you want to alienate all of them?
PS: I’d highly recommend Bellular and Preach over Asmongold any day.
If you enjoy doing content for titanforge, and do not enjoy doing it without it just means that you like titanforging itself, not the content you are doing.
Having the need to rely on an additional layer of RNG to get a decent piece of loot just creates a negative feedback loop. Previously you felt bad when the loot you were looking for, while with warforge/titanforge you also felt bad when it dropped and it did not warforge/titanforge.
The MoP version of warforge/thunderforge was bearable, because it was capped to a maximum (5 and 10).
Raids never required these mechanics, yet Blizzard decided to implement them during MoP, because they noticed that, instead of players improving on their play, they decided to beat their head against a boss they could not defeat, hoping to get a lucky pull when the boss will just miraculously die of old age and they get their loot. They added in the system to help people overcome difficulties by not improving and experimenting, but rather by overgearing the content.
Having warforge/titanforge in the day basically reinforces this way of thinking, and helped a lot in the creation of the current, ridiculous ilvl requirements for pugs, on top of creating Rio, as itemlevel stopped being a measuring factor of someone’s skill levels. Mind you M+ also became a contributing factor to this, along with the weekly chest/vault itself.
It should never return, as it creates a bad gameplay loop that will just breed more frustration.
From what I recall the idea was dropped because with Proving Grounds Blizzard try to educate people, and set goals for them to reach in order to gain access to content (Bronze I think for heroic and normal dungeons, and Silver for Mythic dungeons). This they had to drop because there was a major outcry, as players did not want to learn enough to beat Silver difficulty (which people these days say it is the equivalent of work).
LFR was meant to be a stepping stone to help you get familiar with raids, and yet Blizzard cannot make raid mechanics actually impactful otherwise players will not be able to complete it. Those who played during BFA can recall N’zoth LFR, where you had only two requirements to succeed:
The end result was that the boss was near undoable, because people had to press a button to not get mind controlled.
To their credit Blizzard started getting better at telegraphing their abilities, so it is not the raid mechanics most struggle with, but rather, the issue lies with the fundamentals and how other games work these days.
In today’s games you are expected to jump in, have 4 abilities at max and just go in blasting. When they step into this game and see that as a brewmaster monk you have like 4 skill bar full of abilities that you can use they get overwhelmed. Back then people just took their time to look through your abilities, see which one does what and what the damage numbers are, and based on that you can set up a basic rotation for that.
I feel that a lot of people just do not have the desire/attention span for it anymore. That is why instanced lobby games are very popular, since you can just log in, jump into a game, be done in 20-30 minutes and then get out. It is also why M+ is more popular these days compared to raids (on top of it being a much better source of gear).
You are talking about 2 different things.
If i remember corectly, blizzard said very few people actualy raid, and fewer mythic raid. If it wasnt for lfr, they would simply not bother making it because of time and resources vs low demand.
Regarding class learning curve.
Remember what i said about alt friendly?
People finish content too fast.
Now what if things wasnt so fast and easy ? People would be FORCED the face and overcome the game and learn it. Its part of the process.
This is why we have 4 difficulties
Please stop.
People like OP are ruining WoW and have contributed to it being ruined by catering to absolute super hardcore casuals for years. Raiding should not be designed to please the people that want to do nothing but get everything in return.
Its because of these people that we have stuff like Raid Finder. If you want something you can do 1-handed with your kids, go join Raid Finder. Thats what its for.
Leave raiding alone.
So? Let him ruin it, there way too much dev focus on this race. Its not fun to watch