That based on your personal experience. i cant say much about WSG. i played not that much of them and most of them were against premades. But those rare Pug vs Pug games were 80% winrate for me. As for AB i played them a lot and when its Pug vs Pug, based on my experience horde wins in 70% matches. Sometimes horde even wins a Premade if they are extremely bad.
To anyone reading the above comment.
This is what applies here.
Horde plays to win due to them having 1 hour que and Alliance has instant.
Map (un)balance means very little when every AV horde has 4-10 times MORE kills than Alliance.
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This is pretty much spot on. The map does favor horde, but the main reason is that alliance players aren’t incentivized enough to try their absolute best to win every single game when they could just as easily take the loss and get into another game again.
- Alliance will naturally have more AFKers due to instant queues
- Players that would often try now submit to losing because of map imbalance has made them believe they can’t win or they have to put up with a turtle for over an hour which isn’t effective H/PH
- Rankers won’t touch AV due to turtling since it’s poor H/PH
A map flip would increase Alliance win rate over AV weekend when rankers are playing and the map does have a part to play in Horde win rate because only undergeared Alliance queue now for rep and it’s easier to turtle as Horde with SHGY choke point and being able to easily reinforce IBGY.
However Alliance win rate will only substantially improve if the games were faster (and perhaps it would be without SHGY choke point) as it stands now it’s poor H/PH due to turtling.
Real reason Alliance lose is due to map imbalance AND poor H/PH even if they won winning in 60 minutes is poor h/ph for a faction with instant queues. Which is why Alliance just try to destroy towers and kill LT/Commanders and move on to the next game.
You have managed to undo yourself in one sentence. Either the map favours the horde, or it doesn’t.
If it does, it has to be fixed. It’s simple.
And your failure to understand that your so-thought “main issue” is a result of the imbalance in map design that you too recognize, is testament to the power of zug zug.
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Flipping the map for 2 weeks would change nothing. Most payers do not read the forums - 2 weeks would not be enough time for them to even get to know of this experiment. As it stands, the only Alliance players still Qing AV are those who WANT fast losses and facilitate this by any means of being pseudo AFK, fishing, hiding or whatever…and Bots. Lots and lots of Bots. With just these participants on the Alliance side you will not suddenly win matches.
So the experiement would need to go on MUCH longer.
Also, the Q-time issue would need to be fixed at the same time. Just flipping the map and doing nothing about Qs is not enough. Instant-Qs are too attractive for Bots and Loss-Farmers to pass on. I kind of agree that the imbalance in maps and racials helped to create the Qtime issue - but it is not the sole cause. Not by a long shot. There are FAR more reasons to this - imho split factions are simply a stupid AF idea in the first place and were a bad idea 16 years ago as well - but it does not matter what the cause is: The issue exists. And flipping the map would definetly NOT be sufficient to fix it. Nothing is at this point. Without FREE faction change services (which are impossible to do in classic) the majority of Horde players would rather quit than level a fresh Alliance toon even if Activision REMOVED Horde racials completely without replacement.
The Qtime issue overshadows anythig else. It cannot be fixed. Re-allowing premading on ALL PvP maps would be the only “remotely likely to happen” change that would at least help alleviate it.
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It does
Think you’re missing the point of classic
Horde has more players, meaning more players queueing, meaning longer queues. Losing fast is better honor per hour than winning slowly when you have instant queues.
Don’t really think I qualify as a zug zug either, btw.
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So the hordes crying about ally premades facerolling AV is grounds for change but when we are losing it isn’t?
It’s either no changes, or you have changes. You can’t have your cake and eat it.
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Fixing something that isn’t intended and never happened in vanilla, which only one faction can abuse, is pretty different from making sweeping balance changes like changing the AV map.
And having horde win 98% of the BGs because the map is tilted towards that faction.
Was that intended as well?
There are no differences in those changes in terms of player experience in-game.
That’s why only horde win AV these days. Only they can exploit these map imbalances.
Horde winning 98% of AV games also didn’t ever happen in vanilla.
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I joined premades in Vanilla in all BGs what are you talking about?
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It is a result of the map being slightly horde favored, but mostly because alliance are not incentivized enough to win, unlike horde is.
You did not play in an AV premade that got 30+ players in the same game every time, and also had instant queues.
So a slight edge on the battlefield results in 98/2 win ratio? Okay. How slight is that again?
And if the horde are so incentivized to win, why aren’t they winning most AB and WSG games?
Sounds like the AV map imbalance accounts for a LOT more than you claim.
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What does instant queues have to do with it? That is a function of supply and demand.
I can count the amount of BG’s I’ve played on one hand since I finished ranking so I can’t comment.
It’s probably like a 55/45 difference because of the map. Another reason why horde wins more is that because of their long queues, it’s not uncommon for rankers on horde to queue for every BG to reduce downtime, meaning horde gets more high rank players in AV, while all the well geared/good players on alliance can just do AB or WSG because of instant queues.
Because premading AV was only possible due to instant queues. AV is also (significantly) more honor than AB or WSG, but also had a much longer queue in vanilla, meaning it still wasn’t really what you wanted to be doing to maximize honor per hour.
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We had (this was 1.6-1.10) some addon which notified the raidleader which of the BGs you got into and if enough players didn’t end up in the same, we requeued at the same time. So we got a bunch of players into AV, but I can’t remember to which extent. Probably 15 or so.
It feels like you don’t know what you’re talking about. I mean, then for the time being it was only possible for Alliance but that’s because the Horde meatwagon with all the fotm rerollers picked one side. If the premades would have continued to be a thing then queue times would fall on Horde side until there was some kind of equilibrium reached. That would for sure beat the 1.5 hour long queues with close to 100% winrate that I’m hearing about now- because this crap can’t be good for anyone.
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It’s hilarious to see three people trying to argue about how they’re victimized, with varying degrees of a martyr complex. Narcind is still suffering from it, but is at least more level-headed than the other two.
10/10 entertainment.
You can even see the effect of the diffusion of responsibility phenomenon by looking at you three.
just separate Que people that are not exalted in AV and auto connect to ingame coms, if people dont want to listen they will have to shut it off.
Auto connect and privs to mute in raid coms to raid leader.
Instead of fostering social toxicity exposure, it’s cleaner to just disable automatic matchmaking for teammates. Force everyone to premade if they want to do the BGs.
Takes care of all kinds of problems. It’d also reduce queue times on the Horde side, since the premades losing players can have their queue paused indefinitely until they fill up again via global channels or discord or whatever.
The convenience of automatic matchmaking for teammates has a disproportionate amount of consequences.