Baine and Proudmoore's Cinematic (spoilers)

(Erevien) #204

Apparently I have Trust level 2 currently. Interesting.


Thats is the difference. While you dont/dont want to understand why character does what she does, I take what is given from the actual game facts and put two togather try to find explanation. Everything and everyone has reason of doing things thats where comes the opinions and judgements “Stupid” “clever” “bad” and “good” so forth. That was my headcannon and I did not chase you down on it, while you cannot give me explanation and straight up jump to judgement without needing to understand why that happened.

Because I dont know what you are talking about. And if someone has decency to provide sources, do same for your own good, thats all.

And sorry where does it says he did not know about the plan? OR she had Teldressil as her main plan? What you just posted just shows that Saurfang views Teldressil as wedge that would tear Alliance apart, but nonetheless the goal remains to scar Alliance and Sylvanas just did so with burning it.


is not a plan. Know the difference.

How? Does not line “A wound that can never heal. That had always been the plan . And Saurfang had failed to inflict it.” straight up tells you that he knew that much about the plan?

He knew it but did not execute it.

Ask that to Tyrande, who bashed out of Stormwind pissed on Anduin.

Yes she admits she never wanted to Burn the Tree, but she had to, because Malfurion was alive. Darnassus was Wedge as you said it. But then she clarifies why exactly she had to burn the Tree. " And you, my master strategist, gave that up to spare an enemy you defeated. I have taken it back."

I see. Yeah in that I agree she did not have that plan, but nonetheless she made is work. Sylvanas has no empathy or moral code.

What did she stated that Teldressil was the main goal?

This has nothing to do with him agreeing with Sylvanas, knowing that he f*cked up!


Hey, thats cheating Im invisibru!

You can deathgrip me into your arms! :heart:


You are assuming the story makes sense. It does not. Blizzard legitematly did not see a problem with the Horde invading Teldrassil by land as opposed to sea while not bringing boats. There is no deeper truth to her actions. Just stupidity brought by stupid writing. Finding patterns where there are none is pointless.

How about you read up on it before talking about it? I do not go up to biology professors and disagree with them without having read up on biology

It says that he did not know the full plan above. Sylvanas says Teldrassil was the goal in her in-game dialogue before invading Ashenvale, and says the goal is to take hostages. That is the plan and goal given to her soldiers. She even states Malfurion could be alive after the invasion, in the quote I posted, in addition to her plan to cause a wound to the Alliance, splitting them apart. It is all there.

So you are just going to ignore the fact that you were proven wrong and make some meaningless objections without actually explaining how I am wrong about anything? Pathetic.

He was completely shocked by Sylvanas actions. In the quote you posted, Saurfang realized the true meaning of Sylvanas’ words, even though they contradicted her previous statements that they were to take Teldrassil (something she still planned on doing even after Malfurion escaped until she met Delaryn) and that Malfurion could survive. The quote does not in any way prove he knew Malfurion had to die no matter what (something Sylvanas herselfcontradicted in the quote I showed) only that he realized Sylvanas true goal, though it contradicted everything she had said before. The quote is ill-conceived and illogical.

Only to become the Night Warrior, kill a Val’kyr, have her People fight back on par With the Horde, and last I checkej, stands With Anduin in the Kul Tirasn recruitment scenario. She failed completely. Only the writers saved her from the wrath of Cenarius, the Kirin Tor and other neutral factions who would be disgusted at the genocide.

She did not. She herself admitted he could be alive and the plan would still work. She did not even try to test if the plan could work out With him alive. She jsut assumed it would fail, because, she is a moron who cannot think ahead. Her descision was based on no evidence, kind of like Your claims.

That clarifies nothing. It is just sophistry. It is equivalent With saying “I had to because I had to.” Stop gobbling up everything she says. I have time and time again illustarted that she is unintelligent. She cannot be trusted to think anything rational. Do not sink to her Level.

To her soldiers: " By occupying Darnassus, we will control the flow of Azerite and ensure it cannot be used against us. The Alliance will dare not attack its own city for fear of harming civilians.

With a single stroke, we will guarantee generations of peace."

Next up: " The kaldorei will defy our occupation… unless we break their spirits.

We must inflict a blow that will show them what is at stake. They need to lose something… someone… in whom they have absolute trust and faith. A symbol of hope.

<The Dark Lady narrows her eyes.>

Malfurion Stormrage must die."
Unproven claim, no contingency plan, unlike what you claimed. But I will do you one better. Prove it wrong. No, Sylvanas will prove you wrong. After Rastakhan died, she invigorates the Zandalari to seek vegeance, showing she does not even believe her own reasoning.

Idiots will accept idiotic reasoning, which is why Sylvanas has such a outspoken fanbase.

(Elyssarain) #208

Put a DoT onto you.



I like her reaction: Is he the bomb this time.
Gives me hope blizzard writting team is accauly trying to create consistancy this time around.

I agree that jaina has gotten the most charater development.
I also agree that she has been very inconsistant.
[Insert woman joke here.]

I find myself rather insulted with how they are turning sylvanas into a moron.
She used to be smart.
Not infailable (you can be smart and fail) but smart.
The mistake she makes in bfa are so out of charater for her that i am calling: dreadlord!(or any other shapeshifting enemy that wants the alliance and horde at war).

Lets look at this from warcraft 3 rts perspective:
You are playing a 12 player map.
3 horde, 3 forsaken vs 3 alliance, 3 night elves.
Early game forsaken and night elves lose 1 base.
As the war goes on the forsaken player sylvanas is constantly stealing mines from her allies.
The alliance leave the night elves players to fend for themself while attacking a neurtal harbor to prevent the horde from using it.
And while the night elves are reclaiming the destroyed base location the horde and forsaken are argueing about who gets what.
Meanwhile the alliance player andiun and jaina go away from keyboard instead of pressing the horde while they are rebuilding.
That is pretty much bfa in a nutshell.
We have mistake made on both side’s.
With the alliance having a clear advantage being wasted because 2 of the 5 remaining players are afk.
And the horde doesnt cooperate in the slightest.

You would have suspect that sylvanas of all people would have used her banshee’s to mind control disloyal servants or have them die in a suiced mission.
You know silently getting rid of all those who would disagree with her.
Instead she is openly peeing off her own side.
Are we suppose to believe this is the same woman who outsmarted 3 dreadlords, arthes(death knight not lich king) and used the horde for years.
Just because she is warchief now?
I mean sylvanas is the most manipulative person in all of warcraft.
In bfa she is wearing a sign saying: Hate me, i am evil.

We shall see.

(Durlan) #211

No go play the Paladin Orderhall the Crusade is no more.
They’ve even sided with the Alliance of those who Remained Under Turaylyon.
You can fight the Silverhand as Horde in Arathi when Turaylyon is there.

Both Sides mine and Weaponize Azerite.
So neither side would seem appealing to an order wanting to return the lifes blood to the World.

Finally you really think Orders that’s stayed out of the Conflict would Jump to one side because the Two War Mongering Factions are escalating Their Wars?

(Frozenshadow) #212

You really do need to calm down and get some fresh air.

(Brigante) #213

I’m still a bit unsure about the “is he the Bomb this time?” line. I mean its powerful, but, it kind of makes Jaina look a little bit more crazy again.

I mean, it was Baine who -warned- her that bad things were coming to Theramore, even though he didn’t know the scale, no one did, bar Garrosh. I mean he was the direct reason she was able to evacuate civilians, and prepare. Without him she would be dead…so it seems a bit weird that she throws that accusation at him. Its a bit flip-floppy, but then it is Jaina. Consistency of character has not been her strong point of late.

What is wrong with writing a strong, opiniated female character, who does not also seem to have perpetual victim syndrome? Actually, Moira. Moira’s fine. Jaina is trash writing, if she was written more like Admiral Rogers, or Moira, then she would be consistent, and understandable, -that- would be character development. At the moment she is the plot equivalent of Lego. “We can make it be whatever we want, just by taking apart the pieces and putting them back together in a different way!”


Thats you PoV, If I invest my time in something I will always try to find reasoning in it.

He knew the plan, but he did not anticipate she would have gone that far of burning the Tree.

No the truth be told Objectives are parts of the Goal, which needs to be done to achieve it. And goal is Wedge and Securing Kalimdor, the objective changed from Hostages to Burning. Only thing is that she did not consult with any of the leaders before making the decision because it Sylvanas.


Does not contradict to the overall outcome of securing Kalimdor and driving the wedge in Alliance forces.

The post shows the difference between old Horde and Sylvanas morality and how far she will go to achieve her goal.

Yes because, that story has not been touched since then. I love Alliance dont get me wrong, but there’s so many things not explained.

Thats is because of Daleryn.

No, but I see Saurfangs fault in failing to deliver, having Daleryn said what she said, the situation changed.

Not agreeing with her, this discussion started off Sylvanas being cunning, not a liar. Considering she has no loyalty to Horde whatsoever she used everyone to her advantage. Look at whole war - how many times she has been seen in War?
She anticipated everything that Alliance would do straight after Teldressil happened. Got Night Elves away prior to battle.

I am not surprised she lied to all Horde. Thats why she is referred to Sickness in newest Cinematic.

(Erevien) #215

I’m actually tipping this while having a run in the park.


Again, more headcanon. You do not know the numbers of the Argent Crusade.

See this right here? You do not think things through, so let me, someone who can actually see the logical consequences of my arguments, do so. The Alliance and Horde are mining Azeroth for what purpose exactly? To wage war. Ending that war would by joining the Alliance would thus be in the best interest of neutral factions.

No, I think they would do it because ONE faction escalated THEIR war.

Do you honestly think the people of Dalaran, Cenarion Circle, Argent Crusade etc. would be completely fine with the Horde murdering countless innocent people? People they have interacted with? People they have protected? Do you think empathy is so Limited that it only applies to those in your group? Well, that is how it Works for the Horde I Guess.

(Erevien) #217

True, the Alliance started this war in Stormheim. It’s time to make them pay.

No it would be called Alliance bias because that sums up your avatar.

Talking about headcanon, you use this quite often yourself.


Your funeral.

Except for the part that Malfurion had to die no matter what.

She herself admitted in the quote I posted that the change was unnecesarry as the plan would work out even if Malfurion survived.

It contradicts the outcome of securing Peace, which is the Whole reason she gave the Horde.

So you admit she used anecdotal evidence? That just further illustartes that she is stupid.

She anticipated one action, and failed to do anything about it.


Sylvanas herself stated otherwise at the beginning of BfS, during the Gathering and at the precipice of the War of Thorns (literally stating that she is starting the war), and never used the incident as a reason for war, but nice try. If you are going to lick the dirt of her boots, at least listen to what she actually says.

I think being the victim of genocide would make anyone biased in your favor. And please take of the red goggles before claiming anyone else is biased. You are just seeing things you want to see.

Talking about evidence, you never use it. And I doubt you will post evidence of this either.

(Erevien) #220

No, yours.


Did it take you long to come up with that comeback? If the only thing you do is act snarky, at least get good at it.


I dont see their conversation as anecdotal, she was looking to break the spirits of Night Elves and as Daleryn said “you cant kill hope”, she triggered Sylvanas’ new plan.

Remember when she said that they would come with grief, not with glory? That’s what happened to Tyrande taking the Night Warrior avatar. She anticipated all that. And was counting to win the war upon manipulating the Alliance. She would have ended it in Lordaeron if not for unexpected appearance of aunt Jaina. Is it not true?

Kinda won the battle in Darkshore and Prepared to say goodbye to Undercity, burying Alliance head commanders inside.

Yeah, I dont really believe she wants peace personally.

Ah, I thought she made it clear for Saurfang to kill Malfurion in Darkshore, who straight up fails to do so. They had him.

Hopefully you will bring some flowers, hon.

P.S. God its so freaking painful even having to defend Sylvanas in any way.


That is what anecdotal evidence is. Taking one instance of something beig true and then applying to all possible situations.

She did not even know the Night Warrior existed.

I do not know, and neither do you.

Instead of doing what I proposed and make acutal defensive preparations for the strike at Undercity.

She failed to stress the importance of it. As shown by the citations I made, he was unaware.

(Lilura) #224

Ignoring the fact that the person I’m responding to is the person to have gone on about them. Good job.

Ridiculous reductionism. You blatantly ignore context in order to serve your points. Jaina was a peace-lover, who was screwed over time and time again by the very people she was trying to make peace with; eventually, anyone’s going to have enough. That was her first arc, and BfA completed its second part by bringing her out of the psychotic absolutism to a more reasonable approach. She is by no means back to how she was before. She still hates the Horde.