Baine and Proudmoore's Cinematic (spoilers)

[Atahalni-argent-dawn (Atahalni)]

@Lilura-kilrogg

Jaina is the best written character this expansion. She had what’s called ‘character developement’. Now, I know that may be hard to believe for you Hordies, but people don’t just stay exactly the same their whole lives, regardless of what they experience.
Static characters are what an 8 year old would write, so if you think that’s good writing and what WoW should be, well congratulations; you already have it! It’s called the Horde.

Consistency =/= character development.

Regardless of her developing as a character over the years, it doesn’t make a spit worth of sense that she enters KT hated universally as a character, then to a hero after a couple of questlines. Add to this her powercreep that took a giant leap from the last time we saw her doing stuff (Broken shore) vs SoU.

Then there is the Battle for Dazar alor- Where she literally pulls off the cliche of edgily teleporting behind you and freezing you and when you finally get to kill her she literally does an anime teleport away, which is incredibly cheap writing, and on top of that out of place.

She makes it out very clear that her plan was to kill the Horde right then and there to rub in the victory and make it even sweeter than it was so far- Only to disengage. What? It’d been far better for her story to end then and there, as the Derek questline is really only there to attempt to rub in that yeah, Jaina is actually a human and not a dreadlord. Gee, tell us something we didn’t know.

She’s a waste of air and a bad character. She can do no wrong, succeeds in everything she does and is able to survive every and all situations with minimal scathing (literally getting healed off-screen after dazar alor). She hits every single definition of Mary sue absolutely head-on.

Yes, we get it, Blizzard, you like Frozen and you want to try and write compelling and interesting female characters, but Jaina is a steaming pile of garbage at that.

But hey, that’s your opinion in the end. IDK what’s with the staleness accusation when Nelf playerbase is at uproar and writing suicide notes the moment they get their rears handed to them for the gazillionth time in the game when they refuse to change and adapt to the world around them lol.

@Lilura-kilrogg

That was her first arc, and BfA completed its second part by bringing her out of the psychotic absolutism to a more reasonable approach. She is by no means back to how she was before. She still hates the Horde.

Yeah that’s a great opinion and all but her actions in the game prove the opposite lol.

You can wrap garbage in gift paper but it’s still garbage.

[Lilura-kilrogg (Lilura)]

[quote=“Atahalni-argent-dawn, post:225, topic:34819”]
Consistency =/= character development.

Regardless of her developing as a character over the years, it doesn’t make a spit worth of sense that she enters KT hated universally as a character, then to a hero after a couple of questlines.[/quote]
That’s not down to her character though, is it?

@Atahalni-argent-dawn

Add to this her powercreep that took a giant leap from the last time we saw her doing stuff (Broken shore) vs SoU.

Bollocks.

@Atahalni-argent-dawn

Then there is the Battle for Dazar alor- Where she literally pulls off the cliche of edgily teleporting behind you and freezing you and when you finally get to kill her she literally does an anime teleport away, which is incredibly cheap writing, and on top of that out of place.

She makes it out very clear that her plan was to kill the Horde right then and there to rub in the victory and make it even sweeter than it was so far- Only to disengage. What? It’d been far better for her story to end then and there, as the Derek questline is really only there to attempt to rub in that yeah, Jaina is actually a human and not a dreadlord. Gee, tell us something we didn’t know.

The hell are you talking about? She doesn’t teleport behind anyone at any point. She lobs ice down at the Horde as they try to ascend the pyramid, and its certainly not an ability she does in her fight.
And yes, that was her plan. What wasn’t part of her plan was to die. So she did the smart thing and got out of there, because now she’s an actual reasonable individual, not mindlessly vengeful.
And really? The dreadlord meme again?

@Atahalni-argent-dawn

She’s a waste of air and a bad character. She can do no wrong, succeeds in everything she does and is able to survive every and all situations with minimal scathing (literally getting healed off-screen after dazar alor). She hits every single definition of Mary sue absolutely head-on.

Except she doesn’t? She has failed numerous times throughout her history as a character, has committed and almost committed some ridiculously horrible things (Purge of Dalaran, trying to drown Orgrimmar, etc). Yes, her quick recovery is silly, though we also don’t know how long canonically takes place between the end of the raid and the closing quest. However, that alone doesn’t make her a Mary Sue. Stop throwing around buzzwords thinking they’ll constitute a proper argument.

[Atahalni-argent-dawn (Atahalni)]

@Lilura-kilrogg

That’s not down to her character though, is it?

It’s like you didn’t even read my first post.

She’s obviously a terribly written character because the writing team (Christie Golden included) are terrible at their job. Have been since MoP, arguably.

@Lilura-kilrogg

Bollocks.

Ok why? Show me evidence where’d the power creep happen.

No. They pulled it out of their rears as usual. As Ion Hazzikostas said…

“Continuity exists to enhance a story, not to tie the hands of the developers.”

The irony is that the lack of continuity is what is ruining the story.

@Lilura-kilrogg

Stop throwing around buzzwords thinking they’ll constitute a proper argument.

You haven’t provided a spit of evidence for half of your arguments. The weight is on your end, not mine.

There’s a reason the writing team got absolutely gutted on the twitter after before the storm and a good war were released, and they felt attacked by the playerbase- Which, they deserved. And they certainly deserve all the backlash from this one too.

[Lilura-kilrogg (Lilura)]

@Atahalni-argent-dawn

It’s like you didn’t even read my first post.

She’s obviously a terribly written character because the writing team (Christie Golden included) are terrible at their job. Have been since MoP, arguably.

It’s like you didn’t even read mine. You know full well which point I was responding to there.

@Atahalni-argent-dawn

Ok why? Show me evidence where’d the power creep happen.

No. They pulled it out of their rears as usual. As Ion Hazzikostas said…

“Continuity exists to enhance a story, not to tie the hands of the developers.”

The irony is that the lack of continuity is what is ruining the story.

Jaina was already creating huge ice bridges throughout the Broken Shore offensive. We then know she went off, alone, to fight against the Burning Legion in her own manner. Regardless of us not being able to see that, a single person does not make such a crusade unless they’re already very powerful. She always has been. You’re acting like she’s just been some run of the mill mage most of the game.

@Atahalni-argent-dawn

You haven’t provided a spit of evidence for half of your arguments. The weight is on your end, not mine.

There’s a reason the writing team got absolutely gutted on the twitter after before the storm and a good war were released, and they felt attacked by the playerbase- Which, they deserved. And they certainly deserve all the backlash from this one too.

Glad to see you just take snippets of my post to try and undermine rather than actually confront the points. So no, the burden of evidence here lies on your end. Stop being evasive.

[Atahalni-argent-dawn (Atahalni)]

@Lilura-kilrogg

You’re acting like she’s just been some run of the mill mage most of the game.

Yeah that’s quite accurate.

@Lilura-kilrogg

Stop being evasive.

Evasive?

You remain silent about the points Brigante, Elenthas and others have brought up.

Jaina is a terrible character and matches every point of mary sue. It’s not an opinion. It’s a fact.

Just because dime-a-dozen nelf player happens to enjoy a forced female character being strong and independent while continiously being inconsistent to her character due to the dev’s having a vested interest on her actions doesn’t make her a good character.

[Frozenshadow-silvermoon (Frozenshadow)]

I don’t want to get involved in this argument buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut

@Atahalni-argent-dawn

Ok why? Show me evidence where’d the power creep happen.

She absorbed the power of the Thunder King to her staff (or what was left of it) which explains why she became so powerful.

[Araphant-defias-brotherhood (Araphant)]

@Atahalni-argent-dawn

Just because dime-a-dozen nelf player

I stopped reading here mate.

[Lilura-kilrogg (Lilura)]

@Atahalni-argent-dawn

Yeah that’s quite accurate.

Except for the fact she’s been repeatedly described and portrayed as a prodigy and exceptionally powerful mage? Now who’s ignoring continuity?

@Atahalni-argent-dawn

Evasive?

You remain silent about the points Brigante, Elenthas and others have brought up.

Jaina is a terrible character and matches every point of mary sue. It’s not an opinion. It’s a fact.

Just because dime-a-dozen nelf player happens to enjoy a forced female character being strong and independent while continiously being inconsistent to her character due to the dev’s having a vested interest on her actions doesn’t make her a good character.

We’re not talking about their points here, we’re talking about yours.
And no, its not a fact. You aren’t the arbiter of what is and isn’t fact.

[Atahalni-argent-dawn (Atahalni)]

@Frozenshadow-silvermoon

She absorbed the power of the Thunder King to her staff (or what was left of it) which explains why she became so powerful.

I’m aware.

This doesn’t explain what happened between Broken Shore and BFA though so I ask again, what happened?

[Beshird-draenor]

The idea behind her arcs is good, but the execution is terrible making her look like an unstable character

[Erivjin-die-aldor]

That filthy Proudmoore Ice-Witch murders our glorious king in cold blood and Bloodhoof’s first step is to aid her and her alliance dogs friends? I demand him to be executed! For Zandalar!

[Frozenshadow-silvermoon (Frozenshadow)]

@Atahalni-argent-dawn

I’m aware.

This doesn’t explain what happened between Broken Shore and BFA though so I ask again, what happened?

What do you want me to say? You never saw her use the full extent of her powers and then she was written off.

Did you want a visual demonstration?

[Araphant-defias-brotherhood (Araphant)]

Oh, also, bonus points.
She is considered one of the finest mages in all Azeroth[9] and the most powerful human sorceress alive.[10][11)

You know from what year that footnote is? 2004.

[Atahalni-argent-dawn (Atahalni)]

@Lilura-kilrogg

Except for the fact she’s been repeatedly described and portrayed as a prodigy and exceptionally powerful mage? Now who’s ignoring continuity?

yeah look at that humans are portrayed as the generalist jack-of-all-trades race that then somehow ascends and other races in their own crafts.

it’s almost like that’s a trope in fantasy that’s been so over-used it’s kind of expected at this point.

@Lilura-kilrogg

We’re not talking about their points here, we’re talking about yours.
And no, its not a fact. You aren’t the arbiter of what is and isn’t fact.

I can look up the definition and see which ones she matches. And ding ding ding, she matches all of them.

• My points are exactly theirs. Jaina is a terrible character. End of.

[Lilura-kilrogg (Lilura)]

@Atahalni-argent-dawn

I can look up the definition and see which ones she matches. And ding ding ding, she matches all of them.

• My points are exactly theirs. Jaina is a terrible character. End of.

And yet you refuse to even try and argue against my own points. Refusal to acknowledge them doesn’t make you any more correct.

[Steala-blackmoore (Steala)]

I do like Jaina cause of her character and not cause of helr power. In where she is portrayed as Merry Sue?

[Araphant-defias-brotherhood (Araphant)]

@Steala-blackmoore

In which way she is a Merry Sue?

In a way where they don’t like her, so they toss around phrases they picked up on the internet.

[Frozenshadow-silvermoon (Frozenshadow)]

Pretty much what Araphant has put. Jaina has had the necessary development and character for her powers to be explained, she isn’t perfect and has plenty of flaws. This expansion for the Alliance has been her dealing with her flaws

This cinematic even

Is her going over her faults and problems she may or may not have caused.

Mary Sue is just a term thrown out to instantly slander someone without any thought to what it actually means.

[Aerilen-argent-dawn (Aerilen)]

Jaina is O.K as far as a Warcraft character is concerned.

You can see her reasoning behind what she does but she has been mishandled here and there (attitude flip-flopping/the entire kalec thing - this is where most people are critical of her as a character). Her power creep is reaching DBZ levels of ridiculousness though.

[Beshird-draenor]

Power creep isn’t exactly specific to her character only though, Sylvanas also went toe-to-toe with Malfurion, who held the entirety of Darkshore together during the Catacalysm