Baine Rescue Cinematic


#125

Her lack of action in the aftermath attempting to take responsibility for sending her fleet to their deaths does not speak in her favor.


(Evenmourn) #126

She knew that Lor’themar had already undergone the fatal lobotomy that had him decide Baine was all that was best in the Horde. It was a mercy killing.


#127

I mean, he is right though.


(Zarao) #128

Probably the same one that will have him ignore, again, how Jaina almost kills another Sunreaver representative.


#129

Is he going to be more concerned about Jaina not killing a Sunreaver supporting Sylvanas, than Sylvanas sending the entire Horde fleet to their deaths?


(Evenmourn) #130

t. Alliance


#131

t. Alliance


#132

I dont say she was too injured to fight, but if memory serves, when Saurfang showed up she was in a stalemate or loosing from Malf. Maybe she a few mins wanted to regain her composure

The decision was hers alone, but you make decisions based on circumstances and facts. Saurfang limited Sylvanas’ options and to an extend, forced her hand. Even juries condemn people for provoking others into action or give reduced judgements to people who were manipulated into action.
It is a solid fact however that if Saurfang followed his command as it was normal and expected and reasonable by any non-wow-story-writer the tree would not have burned.

Sylvanas called me to the main halls of Orgrimmar asking me to go to Stormwind and break out some prisoners to forge alliances. She didn’t tag along and she didn’t really help do the work herself, but that is her role, i am sure you understand that, dont pretend to be stupid, you are not i believe.
They followed her orders and direction.

Sure, but it would be beneficial for the Horde, had it worked. Even towards teh fight with the legion.

No, she was not the warchief at the time, thrall was there too, the horde were not close to the alliance and none from the horde took care to inform. Don’t pin this on Sylvanas. It’s a hole in the story, not something realistic. It was fabricated that way.

The alliance hates the forsaken in general, which is a good reason to burn them all to gain acceptance. At least this is how i would see things if i was forsaken.
The main ‘cross’ forsaken carry is the fact they are hated by default.


#133

Strategically, this was a big victory for the horde.
Alliance lost A LOT MORE ships and none of the major characters died as it was expected, for any faction.


#134

Ah yes, which must be why she left on a horse, immediatly. Would not want to strain herself fighting an immobile person. Killing someone who is just laying there can be immensly tasking.

True. Sylvanas does not however.

No, he did not force her to do anything. Sylvanas had a weird paranoia fantasy where her entire plan would fail because the Night Elves would still believe in Elune, with no explanation, even though she had herself literally stated previously that it would be okay for Malfurion to survive the war, and that her plan would only work if the Horde won an honorable victory. She made the baseless assumption that the Night Elves would not submit due to Malfurion’s survival, without proof, not even attempting to invade Teldrassil to see if her plan would work out anyways (proving she did not base her descision on facts and circumstances). Saurfang did not force her to do it. She chose to do it, against her own benefits. She should have planned for Malfurion’s survival, and talked with the other Horde leaders before taking such drastic actions. SHe did not. She failed them and betrayed them.

That is only if the provoker could reasonably have expected the action. Burning Teldrassil as a solution had never been on the table. Sylvanas herself admits so. She was not manipulated. She was not a victim. She threw a hissy fit and failed her people. Up to the point of meeting Delaryn, she was still planning to undergo the invasion. She changed her mind after talking to her. If you are to blame anyone with that ridiculous logic blame Delaryn.

No it is not. That is not a solid fact. That even never occured, thus it is not a “solid fact”. You cannot argue that events that would have occured if something went different are “solid facts”. Solid facts relate to reality, not would-have-beens. Also, by that same standard, Teldrassil would not have been bruned if Sylvanas followed her own order and killed Malfurion when she had the chance. Or even better, decided not to burn Teldrassil and follow her original, stated goals.

You talked about who saved the Zandalar and established an Alliance with them, not who instigated negotiations. Please do not be stupid.

Ah yes, the age-old Horde tradition of slavery. It could have worked, until Helya died, Odyn came free and burned Undercity to the ground to free his people.

She became Warchief after the event, and she called the retreat, that makes it her responsibility. The Alliance was a hundred meters away, she could easily have sent a messenger. I pin this solely on Sylvanas. She failed her job from the moment she enteres office.

I see. Commiting genocide is a good way to make people like you. The Alliance hates the forsaken so much they allowed them to keep all of Lordaeron fater SoO, neglecting to punish any of their war crimes, allowing them free reign, not stopping their blight-production and later setting up a peace-meeting with them in Arathi. Gosh, how do the forsaken stand them.

No, a big victory would be destroying the Alliace fleet, without losing any ships, or at least keeping your ships undermanned to avoid casualties. Sylvanas did neither. The Alliance still has the night elf fleet, while the Horde has nothing. And considering that Kul Tiras is three times the size of the areas held by the Zandalari empire, they will rebuid their fleet much quicker. Sylvanas has only managed to delay her defeat. Also, she gets a civil war on her hands.


(Erevien) #135

Numbers don’t matter so counting ships is pointless as much as Daelinna likes to reeeeee about it. This destroyed fleet stands symbolical for all the ships of the Alliance, anything else is nitpicking. Just take it and move to the next plot point.


(Evenmourn) #136

The Horde has practiced slavery at all times in its existence. Thrall’s top advisor Rehgar was a slaver and gladiatorial slave fighting, up to and including with Horde races being used was done as well. Garrosh had it more openly, from kobolds to gnomes and night elves and Sylvanas kept it up.

Odyn is morally equivalent to Sylvanas both in practicing slavery and running a cult of personality. It’s just that Sylvanas sent her fleet there to nab the Aegis to use vs the Legion whereas Odyn was okay with giving it away to the Legion if Skovald beat the PC.

Rest is also wrong, but I’ll leave it to other posters.


#137

I mean, yeah, it lost more ships because the Horde had 2 ships left, which they also lost. You are not proving anything.


#138

Yes, like I said…

This is blantantly false. The plot of Stormheim is literally him trying to prevent Skovald from getting the Aegis. Did you play the zone? What did Sylvanas do again? Slipped of by herself to collect a lamp, sent all but one of her troops to fight Greymane rather than aid the player get the Aegis.

You misspelled “I want the rest to be wrong, but I am incapable of proving so. Gosh, I hope someone else responds to it so I do not look like a fool”.


(Evenmourn) #139

The Stormheim intro tells you in plain text that Sylvanas is going off on her mission ‘by her own means’ while the rest of the fleet is meant to help the PC, shown when she refuses any escort. Odyn allows Skovald to challenge you for the Aegis in the dungeon, i.e if he’d won it, he’d have received the Aegis.

Later:

Afterwards all the Forsaken NPCs focus on helping you except the ones in Sylvanas’ direct proximity when she comes back for Skold-Ashil. Compare and contrast Genn being there to kill Sylvanas specifically.

Edit: Jesus is this forum finicky to use.


#140

Sure, it says so, but it does not happen. The player only receives aid from Sylvanas’ army when they attack the dragon village, at which point she sends a single forsaken to aid them. The rest of the time, her army is helping her enslave undead, something she was once against. Please play through the zone before trying to describe what happens.

Let me let you in a little secret. Sylvanas says a lot of things that never happen. “I will seize Teldrassil to ensure peace”. Proceeds to burn it down. “I will track Eyir throught he halls of Valor.” Never does that. “With the abyssal scepter and the Zandalari fleet, the Alliance will be doomed!” Oops, there goes the Zandalari fleet. It would be a good idea to never take her word for anything. In fact, if she says something, expect the opposite.


(Evenmourn) #141

Of course no one else helps you except the survivors on that beach at the start, everyone else is dead or displaced by Genn attacking the fleet. That doesn’t change Sylvanas’ intent or the factual reality that she went off alone at the start and ultimately confronted Eyir alone as well, whereas every Forsaken NPC that meets you on the Aegis story tries to help you out in your task.

As for enslaving Val’kyr, they’re already slaves and Sylvanas has been using mindless ghouls and abominations since Vanilla. Especially since as stated, the Horde routinely uses slavery. This meme might fly at Blizzard HQ, but it has no connection with reality.


#142

Except for everyone that was alive.

Helping me get an artifact that can save the world? Nah.
Helping Sylvanas run around on a wild-goose chase to enslave undead? Yes!

Again, you have not played through the zone, so please stop writing things about it. You do not know the story. Sylvanas is only alone up until she gets the Soulcage, at whih point she rejoins her forsaken forces. There is a single, one single forsaken that aids you in getting the aegis. Again, play through the zone and you will see.

Prove it.

Key word being “mindless”.

This is not about the Horde. This is about the forsaken’s cultural principle of not abridging undead free will.

What meme? The only thing here with no connection with reality is your description of the Stormheim story.


(Evenmourn) #143

I think you should play Horde side and while you’re at it, apply some salve to your :peach: since Sylvanas seems to have dug her way in pretty deep there.

The only reason the Horde PC survives the initial engagement is because the Forsaken apothecaries fix him up. After which they guide and direct you up until you enter the neutral portion of the story. After that, since you can play the quests in any order it’s unclear whether the part with the Aegis or the one that ends with a cinematic occurs first.

The val’kyr being members of a personality cult to Odyn of which the first Val’kyr is a slave is in Chronicle. It’s not like one can resign. Though I will say that using said slaves to give her Forsaken eternal life as she intends to do per her thoughts in Before the Storm is a much nobler motive than using these slaves to LARP as the god of your own viking recreational society like Odyn. Or for that matter, for gladiator fights like our buddy Thrall.

The slavery distinction is moot. There’s no appreciable moral difference between enslaving a living person or an undead one nor one with a mind or without it, since in either case you’re trapping the soul in its husk and then consigning it to hell.


#144

Considering the absolute desperate ignorance you employ to defend her, it is pretty obvious where this comment is coming from.

Also, injecting a “lol, u butthurt” comment in a discussion where the other party has been nothing but cordial in disagreement, ironically makes you seem unreasonably frustrated.

That is not helping you get the aegis. That gets you no closer to the aegis. They are just doing their job as medical staff. Odyn’s beard, that is a reach!

Are you seriously using gameplay design to argue about characters’ motives? Odyn sends one of his ravens to lead you to him, and the forsaken do nothing. But again, you have not played through the zone, so you would not know. Odyn is the one who gets you on the chase, not Sylvanas.

And this proves they are all slaves, how?

Well of course, they are undead made by Odyn. It would not mean anything for them to resign. What a weird comment to make.

True. And using the Val’kyr to build an army of the spirits of Azeroth’s strongest vrykul so they may defend their world even in death is an even nobler motive than that.

What are you talking about? You are not making an argument here, nor tying it to anything we have talked about.