Instead ban repeat dungeon leavers, why not just ban dungeons?
Solve problem from the roots. Done.
This, however, will increase the frequency of players staying entirely afk and demanding to âlose fastâ because it will be near-optimal to spend 3mins in a Battleground and get 75% of the winnerâs reward than spend 10mins with 50-50 chance for a victory. Which in turn will also lead to the winning side not having âfunâ because they wonât be PvPing except at the otherâs side graveyard against afk players.
If losing can get you the same results as winning in a reasonable time frame, (even if not optimal), it will lead to degenerate behaviour.
Oh, they do, and there are 2 types: (a) The type that wants everything without effort and (b) The type that wants everything but exclusively for them and those better than them
Blizzard created the problem themselves by adding several levels of difficulty for dungeons to the game, of which normal and heroic are just so ridiculously easy and have nothing to do with a real dungeon or heroics and the whole focus is on âm+ gogogo fastâ. By doing so, Blizzard has attracted a player base that doesnât want to see a heroic dungeon as an exciting adventure with other people, but simply a means to an end for the actual dungeons that will release soon.
Heroics donât matter at all anymore besides getting the best gear for the very first start week before mythic comes out. Take the Stonevault Dungeon. This dungeon takes less than 10 minutes with people who know how to press 3 buttons. But if you have to do the dungeon with people who already have problems putting their clothes on the right way then itâs just annoying after youâve done the dungeon 40 times because the actual <10 minute dungeon suddenly takes 20 minutes or longer. Heroics are an absolute joke and thereâs not really any difference to normal dungeons. Already in the first week 3 DDs could do most dungeons without a tank. Blizzard has given us a dungeon difficulty that is completely useless and only suitable for a quick gear grab.
Also, Blizzard created the problem themselves because they had a system back thenâŚwhich is /sarcasm âCOMPLETELY differentâ now. Back then it was Valor Points and now itâs Valorstones. Uhh such difference⌠from where you could buy gear back then that had the same ilvl as from the heroic dungeons. You also got them for completing the dungeon. As a kind of failsafe if you were really unlucky with loot, then you could get your shield from the vendor, for example. Since this does not exist anymore people will just do the first boss, leave and repeat. There is simply no reason to complete a dungeon anymore unless you need loot from the final boss. And that is simply a problem that Blizzard has created itself and has in its own hands.
When you reach mental maturity, youâll realize that simply âbanning/punishingâ leavers doesnât fix the problem, it just fights the symptom and will only increase the level of toxic behavior because people will find other ways to exploit the system which is usually worse than waiting 10 seconds for a new DD. Take games like Leauge of Legends or Dota. Both games have heavy punishment for beeing toxic or leaving the game early, but the community of moba players are still the worst on the planet and they still leave games. You cant fix human behaviour with this kind of punishment. Blizzard needs to make completing dungeons more valuable and preferably put heroics and normal together so you have less useless levels.
Blizzard has separated the player base more and more with their recent expansions. The game mainly offers content for the bottom 10% of absolute casuals and the top 10% who want to max the game and play it like itâs a job. And these two groups come together in the dungeon finder.
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Thank you kindly for the well thought out and put together post, you have opened my eyes to a lot of things and I really appreciate that!
True.
Do you think thereâs another solution or balance to be found? Or is the current setup the best we can get?
Maybe a faster afk detection, say you havenât moved in 1-2 minutes you get a pop-up that you have to click away within a couple of seconds.
Could have bots automatically fill up the roster anytime anyone leaves until a new player joins.
Increase deserter debuff and/or make it account bound.
The toxic element is the effect it has on the other 4 persons in the Dungeon - leaving an IRL party does not have an effect on other people whatsoever unless it is the designated driver - in which case it would be pretty toxic to either:
a.) make those other persons leave at the same to have their lift home - thus ruining their fun
or b.) leave them at the party with no way home unless they manage to arrange an alternative - add inconvenience and potentially cost.
That is why it is a bad example.
1.Your speed running tanks are still ruining the game by existing.
2.war within Dungeons are WAY shorter than what we are used to.
- all tanks should still finish the 20 min or less dungeon they signed up for the in the first place, it really honestly baffles me on how can keep up defending these people with more excuses.
Exactly if you are climbing the CR ladder⌠If you have high MMR but low CR, you will gain more CR in the next lobby given you win. Thatâs why some people reach a point where they get 10 rating for winning a lobby 4-2⌠Hence why people would rather leave and lose 120CR than stay and lose MMRâŚ
See above explanation. Your argument would be valid, if the CR gain wasnât tied to the MMR. But it is. Hence my correction of your statement.
But if you loose⌠
What you describe with MMR is a bet. If you win you win. If you loose you loose MMR.
Therefore⌠unless you are WAY bellow your MMR that would guarantee more than 50% winrate⌠your stuck with 50% winrateâŚ
So the chances of actually winning a match after you loose 120 CR is 50%. Therefore⌠you might not loose any MMR. But if you leave 50% of the time every time you are close to loosing, you will mathematically end up with 0 CR (no rewards) and glad level MMR.
And that describes my experiences in SS is that it takes an eternity to win back that 120 CR. MMR or not. Dosent matter. And as a healer its worse. Because unlike a DD that will never tie a match, a healer will most likely tie a match.
So if you play for rewards only, loosing 120 CR is literally 2/3 playtime days to earn it back. And as a healer, it might be a week. Not kidding.
Its a good start but also punishes people like me who play at odd hours on a low pop server where the replacement is not right away. I could be waiting 30 min or more and cant be bothered sometimes and want to switch characters as opposed to being locked into the one who is stuck in a dungeon que in fear of getting that 30 min ban.
I took countless âdeserterâ âbuffsâ since release. Even now if the tank leaves after first boss i am still stuck with at least 10 min CD to que again. Ive got an army of druids for just this case. SO i can switch when i get screwed over.
Loot at the end of the dungeon.
Now weâre talking hypothetical statistic scenarios⌠I am talking about reality here⌠You argued people stopped leaving SS due to the CR punishment and would rather just stay AFK at the door, and that is not true.
People would rather lose their CR than MMR, as the MMR is more valueable and harder to obtain. If that wasnât the case, people wouldnât be wanting âharsher MMR punishmentsâ. The CR punishment didnât do much, it may have for those people that didnât know the mechanics of it.
But if it actually was the case, you wouldnât have people like Lontar pointing out these things.
A loss is always a loss, for both MMR and CR, but CR is easier obtainable with a higher MMR than MMR is. Hence why only punishing through CR did not work as intended.
How does this make sense? If you lose CR you gain it easier with higher MMR⌠Your whole argument was people would rather stay afk at the door⌠So thatâs a loss too? I just pointed out, that no⌠We still had leavers, because they kept their MMR, meaning just a 3-3 would earn them a good chunk of rating, but staying and losing MMR would mean they would have to start WINNING lobbies to earn just 10-12 CR.
Only if you win !! How likely is that ?
And all the examples and streamers you mention are for the glad levelâŚ
All this mmr discussion is valid only if you already have the rewards and all you care is to climb the ladder⌠But not if you dont have the rewards yet.
Absolutely not for those that just wanted the 1800 rating rewards.
And you know how the lobies between 0 and 1800 mmr areâŚ
You are literally telling .e how m+20 keys work to argue about something in heroic dungeons. Its the same dungeon, but not the same game.
That irrelevant!!! We are talking about the PUNISHMENT not the hypothetical scenario you wanted⌠Why is it relevant whether you win or not NEXT time if we are talking about YOU claiming people STOPPED leaving because of CR punishment?
Of course it is⌠Mate the whole point is, itâs easier to gain CR with higher MMR⌠then you say âOnly if you win!!â yes⌠but thatâs the case too in your scenario? So what is the difference? You gain CR even if you DRAW with higher MMR, thatâs why DRAWING gains you points at the beginning, whereas later on you even gain 1CR for WINNING 4-2 because your MMR is too low compared to your CRâŚ
No⌠Iâm talking about the punishment and reward system. You can even google the punishment system and you will see multiple posts saying people want MMR to be punished (sometimes even in combination with, but harsher than CR)âŚ
Doesnât matter if its glad or 1800⌠Higher MMR = easer to climb.
I played SS too, and people would indeed leave rather than AFK at the door. Which is what I corrected. Not some statistical hypothetical âtheres a 50% chance of winningâ scenario. It was only your statement about the punishment.
And I will repeat:
People that would rather just AFK at the door, either wanted to tilt people (as it would punish them too as they would rose the rounds i.e. CR and MMR too) or does not understand the MMR / CR system.
You claim that leaving an arena and loosing 120 rating is not a big deal. That the only thing that matters is mmr because you can win that 120 rating backâŚ
All this to tell me that in solo suffle people dont AFK to avoid loosing 120 rating. In fact, you are so convinced that you tried to justify that its better to leave and loose 120 rating than loose mmr.
And i sinply told you that is not true. If you leave an aren to keep your mmr intact thst is OK. I get that.
But to earn back the 120 rating that you lost, you first have to win a match⌠There are 2 other options, loose a match, or leave again and loose 120 rating (240 total).
So if your goal is aquiring 1800 rating (not mmr) for rewards, then leaving an SS match is a net loss because the chances of winning 3/4 matches in a row to earn it back are super low.
Therefore, people AFK in solo arenas.
You can even loose CR if you draw. And as you correctly statef⌠Earning 1 or 2 rating per match to compensate for loosing 120 is NOT a winning strategy.
You want to earn rating, you have to win matches. And you have to win them consecutively. Simple as that. You cant cheat the system.
I will use this as proof of why systems of punishment dont work. And that is why heroic dungeons dont need deserter buff.
It wonât solve anything.
As for your continued insistance on the non-existsnce of AFKers in SSâŚ
Maybe things are different now. But in S1, S2 and S3 of DF, with 1000+ matches in arena i can tell you i have seen way too many people AFKing.
And this mmr/rating formula sucks hard for healers.
I just cannot argue any longer against something i have seen with my own eyesâŚ
And i quit pvp because of it. And wont come back untill they change the garbage mmr system. Well, to be more precise : how mmr is translated to rating. Because rating is all i care about.
So youâre saying that itâs okay for the minority to have a crappy experience, as long as the majority is having funâŚ
Itâs hard, if not impossible, to find a reward structure that would be globally accepted as fair. I think what needs to be done is to implement it in such way so that both the winning but also the losing side gets massively more rewards the closer they were in âscoreâ when the match ends, in addition to the current system where longer matches reward more currencies. And yes, I know that this could lead to degenerate behaviours of intentionally trying to extend matches to maximize rewards.
Hereâs a hypothetical example with Warsong Gulch which has a limit of 15mins if I remember correctly:
- Base amount of Conquest for winner is BaseConquest. This will be the amount of Conquest rewarded to the winning side if they win within 50% of the battlegroundâs max duration, ie. 7m30sec.
- Base amount of Honor will be equal for both winning and losing side is BaseHonor.
- The amount of BaseConquest for winning side will increase linearly from 50% duration to 100% duration of the battleground so that at 100% duration it becomes 2x its initial value. Amount of honor rewarded to the winning side remains the same with regards to battleground length.
- The amount of BaseHonor for the losing side will increase linearly from 50% duration to 100% duration of the battleground so that at 100% duration it becomes 3x its initial value.
- All above rewards are further multiplied by up to another 2x with respect to their base value the closer the final score is to a draw. So for Warsong Gulch:
â A score of 3-0 would not increase Conquest and Honor for the winning side, or Honor for the losing side
â A score of 3-1 or 2-0 would increase Conquest and Honor for both the winning amd losing sides by another 50% of BaseConquest and BaseHonor
â A score of 3-2 or 2-1 or 1-0 would increase Conquest and Honor for both the winning side by another 100% of BaseConquest and BaseHonor
â A draw would reward both sides only BaseHonor without any multiplier whatsoever.
The goal of the above reward system is:
- Entice players to stay even in a losing scenario since the losing side gets up to 4x the base reward, which is more optimal from the point of view of grinding for currencies than quitting the losing battleground and requeueing.
- Entice players to fight to close the gap even in an impossible win, since that way they will get rewarded even more. This will also be helped by the fact that the winning side is also enticed to not go far ahead of the losing side but instead have a close score for maximizing their own grinding session, which will lead to a lot more âclose shavesâ than landslides of victories and even overturned battlegrounds.
- Draw should exist at equal scores, and needs to exist to prohibit the degenerate behaviour of both sides turtling or âagreeingâ to nonaggression to both get max rewards. Draw needs to be the absolute worse case scenario.
For other battlegrounds the scoring system would similarly be a linear function of the difference of the scores.
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Itâs always going to be this way. Itâs impossible to please everyone. Straight up impossible.
We already have a solution for leaving dungeons: itâs called the deserter debuff. The real issue isnât that people leave; itâs why they leave. If someone leaves due to an emergency or life event, thatâs completely understandable. However, if they leave because youâre underperforming due to suboptimal gear or lack of preparation, thatâs on you. Players have every right to leave a group that isnât functioning properly.
If you donât like people leaving mid-dungeon, the game offers a fantastic solution: join a guild. Guilds provide a more reliable and understanding group dynamic where you can avoid the frustration of random players dropping out. But if you donât want to put in the effort to make friends or join a community, well, beggars canât be choosers. You have to accept the consequences of playing with randoms, and sometimes that means dealing with people who will leave if they think youâre not up to par.
We asked blizzard for a fix, they said they would fix it. They lied⌠no fix at all. They gave us the big middle finger. We need a 30min warbound deserter if you leave within X progress after you joined the run.
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Iâm sorry, but no matter how far-reaching or punitive you make the debuff, it will never compare to the frustration of playing with someone who simply isnât pulling their weight. Whether itâs due to lack of gear, poor performance, or an unwillingness to communicate, the real issue isnât the mechanics of the debuff systemâitâs the impact of being stuck in a group where one person is dragging everyone else down.
A debuff might discourage people from leaving, but it does nothing to fix the underlying problem of players who arenât prepared or capable of contributing meaningfully to the group. The frustration of carrying someone who refuses to engage, whether itâs through basic mechanics or even something as simple as joining a voice call, can ruin the experience for everyone else. No debuff will ever balance out that level of frustration. The real solution lies in better systems to match players based on skill or preparation and more accountability for those who continually underperform.
But hay punish the people who donât want to deal with you.